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why do amp specs never show what is lowest note they can perform?
- Thread starter StringGirl
- Start date
Let's not ignore the fact that many recorded bass tones on favorite albums, and various FOH mixes get compressed, EQ'd, and pass filtered so there's often reduced or minimal content below 100 Hz. Gotta make room for the kick drum and keep down the boom. For example, the reputable and expensive Noble has a switch to engage a -6 dB per octave cut from 90 Hz down.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
If you study the spectrum of a single plucked note on a low string, typically over 50% is harmonics (maybe as much as 70% on some basses and with some pickup positions), so often the harmonics dominate what you are really hearing.
Yeah, figured that part out already.
Well, for how big, I've already got an Accugroove Whappo Grande 21", and I'm not convinced it's giving me what I want, but I don't have much to compare against. Yet. I'm going to see how a Definitive Technologies Trinity 2000w powered subwoofer sounds with it in the near future though. 
(And already using a line level crossover set at about 60hz and biamping.)
Music is not science but it can be applied in some areas. Since humans are involved, most objectivity goes out the window and we're left with the axiom that I have come to accept:
if it sounds good, it is good
On a gig, once the downbeat happens all the data and spec sheets mean very little - unless they got you close to what you want.
if it sounds good, it is good
On a gig, once the downbeat happens all the data and spec sheets mean very little - unless they got you close to what you want.
Al Kraft
Supporting Member
- May 2, 2016
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- Mesa Boogie beta product tester and player support
I'm an engineer (not in the musical instrument/amplification world) and often use specs to screen in or screen out the group of products I'll kook at first to meet a particular need. For instance, when you're playing an outdoor event with no FOH support where 500 to 1000 people will attend, there are some obvious non-starters you can see from specs. However, even with a complete set of specs covering every possible operating condition in any conceivable operating environment, you will often hear it differently than what the numbers alone told you to expect. I'd bet that most any amp and or speaker can reproduce "a signal/response" lower and/or higher than is useful or perhaps even advisable - albeit it may not be able to do it for long, very accurately or with useful volume.
As an engineer I fully understand the appetite for specs, but the musician side of my brain tells me that how something sounds is more important, because neither the audience nor I listen to specs. Even those of us with technical backgrounds can be misled into thinking we understand more about a product than a spec actually has the ability to fully reveal/convey. It reminds me of thinking you have five decimal place accuracy in an answer because that's the number on the calculator display, but forgetting that the significant digits in the measured numbers in the equation were only two decimal place accuracy.
As an engineer I fully understand the appetite for specs, but the musician side of my brain tells me that how something sounds is more important, because neither the audience nor I listen to specs. Even those of us with technical backgrounds can be misled into thinking we understand more about a product than a spec actually has the ability to fully reveal/convey. It reminds me of thinking you have five decimal place accuracy in an answer because that's the number on the calculator display, but forgetting that the significant digits in the measured numbers in the equation were only two decimal place accuracy.
You are right, we humans unfortunately can not hear really low frequencies. BUT we can feel them
. I personally love that. E.g. The equipment they use on shows like Roger Waters' the Wall tour from 2012 (BTW the documentary made no justice to it)
they were using infrasounds, it is a greater experience.
So do you never go through the PA at live shows? Or record?Yeah, figured that part out already.
(And already using a line level crossover set at about 60hz and biamping.)
I haven't gigged in 15+ years. I record some into my computer, haven't tried that with the Quake though. I don't really have any rational justification for this quest, to be honest. And if I were to gig again, it wouldn't be with the Quake tuned to E0, most likely.
This is true and often repeated in TB. However, when you see an enclosure (for any application) with say one small and one large driver, you can safely assume that it is crossed-over, and which one is carrying the lows. And when a manufacturer has a specific bass cabinet line with say a 1x10, 1x12, and 1x15 option, you can probably guess correctly which has the lowest frequency response nine times out of ten.
The correlation between speaker size and frequency response is not completely and utterly random.
Yeah, cause I was going to say... at any venue where you're in the PA, the person at the board is probably going to high pass your signal well above 20hz, probably more like 60-100hz, to make room for the kick drum's lows. Same with recording engineers.
It depends... sometimes you want the lower end for the bass and just the attack sound of the kick
Guys! Where are our manners?? I’ll go first: @StringGirl welcome to TalkBass. It’s nice to have a lady join our hackneyed ranks! Please consider filling out your profile as the information is helpful in our efforts to help you.
What has been said by others about “low end products” is all very true. Some stuff out there have little to no documentation some, I’m sure, ‘cos their products are not that great. We are emerging from an earlier era when manufacturers had a "speakers in a box” kind of mentality. To be fair it’s only comparatively recently that cabinets have been designed using actual science to produce superior products. Unfortunately too few of them do this.
Please consider filling out your profile as the information is helpful in our efforts to help you.What has been said by others about “low end products” is all very true. Some stuff out there have little to no documentation some, I’m sure, ‘cos their products are not that great. We are emerging from an earlier era when manufacturers had a "speakers in a box” kind of mentality. To be fair it’s only comparatively recently that cabinets have been designed using actual science to produce superior products. Unfortunately too few of them do this.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,947
- 5
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- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
It usually takes multiple cabinets, and drivers that are designed specifically for subwoofer duty (which will have awful mid bass and mid response) and will not be all that efficient as well.Yeah, figured that part out already.
(And already using a line level crossover set at about 60hz and biamping.)
My main PA rig uses 12 JBL SRX-718 subs, and about 10kW of power. Clustered and ground coupled in half-space, it can do maybe 120dB/1W/1M at 20Hz with the proper processing (though can do maybe 132dB at 40Hz). This application would demand a high Q high pass filter set just under 20Hz otherwise the drivers would tear themselves apart. This is pro level gear, about $20k worth just for subs, power and processing.
This is true. Documentation for products on the more budget end of things is often quite lacking.Guys! Where are our manners?? I’ll go first: @StringGirl welcome to TalkBass. It’s nice to have a lady join our hackneyed ranks!
What has been said by others about “low end products” is all very true. Some stuff out there have little to no documentation some, I’m sure, ‘cos their products are not that great. We are emerging from an earlier era when manufacturers had a "speakers in a box” kind of mentality. To be fair it’s only comparatively recently that cabinets have been designed using actual science to produce superior products. Unfortunately too few of them do this.
In my experience, even when you have a lot of the attack from the kick, there's still a significant amount of sub low from it in the mix. And it's best to keep this and the bass from overlapping too much.
Most people assume the cab size as part of the equation, which makes sense because in days of old bigger speakers usually came in bigger boxes. However, the market is now filled with compact cabs lines, where the enclosure size is minimized in order to save weight and make them more portable. Assuming a 15" speaker will come in a similar/proportionally sized cab across all manufacturers and product lines is not what it used to be. I've had two cabs from the same builder, using the same driver, and one was more compact, with noticeably different low end characteristics.
Tends to be most prominent in EDM and related music, IME. Subs do fill the low bass, with thin, clicky kicks above it.
D
Deleted member 165050
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You can always duck the bass on the kick. Even though I hate that. But then I hate weedy clicky kick drum sounds as well. Actually almost everything about rock is irritating except for bass.
