why do amp specs never show what is lowest note they can perform?

[swafran]

Hey @StringGirl, I say this with complete respect, you are making a mistake I made for a long time. You are trying to determine if a piece of gear is going to sound the way you want by reading specs.

You can't know from the specs. (Especially the ones approved by the marketing team long after the engineers have gone home). You have to just try it out.

But hey that can be fun, right? Music store, friend's house... the "may I help you riff" ... good times. =)

 

[ReedyBass]

I'm on the side of wanting more info in the specs as it helps by buying decision, but my decision about whether to buy/keep or return something is always based on my ears. A frequency response graph (not just numbers) gives me a good guide as to whether an amp (or more specifically amp / speaker / cabinet combination) is going to reproduce low fundamental notes well or emphasise the harmonics more.

I suspect most bass combos do not have a flat response but are quite peaky as they are based on square boxes with flat parallel sides that will naturally have resonances somewhere in the upper bass region. This is a significant factor in why cabs sound different and not something that can be easily determined by a spec sheet. Most amps (excluding the speaker/cab) will likely have a fairly good response down to 20Hz.

My PA sub (which is set up at home) easily reproduces the E string fundamental, my Fender Rumble not so well, but I still use the Rumble for my playing at home as it sounds good and gives me great control over the tone through its eq.

 

[ReedyBass]

I'm sorry, but that spec sheet does not say what you think it says.

And this is why most retailers don't bother to publish this data: most buyers won't care, and many will misinterpret what they read.

Sort of both right really and it emphasises the problem of incomplete specs or a misunderstanding of what they are trying to say.

It does say that at 20Hz the difference between the signal and the noise is going to be 80dB, but what it doesn't say is whether you will be able to hear it at any meaningful volume (it might just be through headphones even). The spec is probably really trying to say it doesn't produce much unwanted noise, nowhere near studio quality, but not too bad.

 

[RickyT]

I have only found it on the manual of the amps... which means you have to go and download the pdf of all the amps you are interested

So you have to spend an extra minute looking at something? Seems reasonable if you're going to spend $1000 on something.

 

[Hambone 70]

Here's a useful subwoofer/amp/cab tester: Online Tone Generator - Generate free low frequency tones to test your subwoofer.

Lots of other useful stuff on that page, too. Here's a great sounding time-stretcher, great for slowing down tracks to learn: Free Online Time Stretcher | OnlineToneGenerator.com

 

[Watchootognbout]

Bass players are not usually lab technicians, researchers, or engineers so putting that sort of information in the manual is pretty pointless.

Most users would not understand it so the manufacturers do not include it. They cater for the majority and you, and a few others on TB, are in the minority.

I agree that most bass players don't understand the technical data.
But I think that they should include it regardless.
So that their knowledge base can be expanded.
Deep immersion.
Remember getting your first computer?

 

[trowaclown]

But I think that they should include it regardless.
So that their knowledge base can be expanded.

You're assuming that:
1. Bass players have a natural curiosity for such technical information. Most aren't, and the most successful definitely don't pore over such details.
2. You're also assuming a successful leap from "seeing something unfamiliar" to "understanding what it means", but as OP has shown, this is hardly the norm.

I bet at least 90% of bass players here don't understand what something like "500 watts RMS" even measures or means, and it's not important as long as the amp is loud enough.

Ultimately, manufacturers have little interest in providing such figures anyway. Transparency/accuracy do not contribute to sales, unlike buzz words like "punchy lows" or "crisp highs".

 

[GMC]

It's because 20hz doesn't correspond to a specific note. 18.35 is D0, 19.45 is Eb0 and 20.60hz is E0. C0 is 16.35hz.
Most amps can go lower than 20hz...but in stating that frequency, the engineers are saying that it conforms to the usual hi-fi design parameters of 20-20Khz audio range.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

It's because 20hz doesn't correspond to a specific note. 18.35 is D0, 19.45 is Eb0 and 20.60hz is E0. C0 is 16.35hz.
Most amps can go lower than 20hz...but in stating that frequency, the engineers are saying that it conforms to the usual hi-fi design parameters of 20-20Khz audio range.

20Hz to 20KHz is the average maximum human hearing range. You'll be lucky to hear C0 unless you're still young and even then not everyone would hear it.

 

[ReedyBass]

If you factor in what equal loudness is perceived as then things get even more complicated when interpreting spec. This is (partly) why guitars some so damn loud with so little power and why bass/subs need so much power.

 

[Nev375]

Remember getting your first computer?

Oh yeah..., I remember... a Timex sinclair 1000 with the 16K memory expansion pack.

I had to unplug the Atari to connect it to my TV set. That dang TV weighed a ton and the UHF knob kept breaking off.

10 PRINT "I Am Awesome!"
20 GOTO 10

Not sure what this has to do with bass gear 35 years later, but thanks for the nostalgia.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I agree that most bass players don't understand the technical data.
But I think that they should include it regardless.
So that their knowledge base can be expanded.
Deep immersion.
Remember getting your first computer?

I remember my first computer....but even today I've never "immersed" myself in deep technical specs. Hard Drive, RAM, screen size...

 

[Watchootognbout]

Not sure what this has to do with bass gear 35 years later, but thanks for the nostalgia.

What I'm implicating is the steep learning curve required.

 

[GMC]

20Hz to 20KHz is the average maximum human hearing range. You'll be lucky to hear C0 unless you're still young and even then not everyone would hear it.

C0 is percievable but genearlly not audible. We tend to feel it rather than hear it. There are a few church organs about with working 32' pipes that can play a pure C0. 20-20Khz is an arbitrary figure chosen by men in white coats at the dawn of HiFi. In an amp regards itself as hifi or full range...then it is conforming to an ambiguous formula to start with.

If you factor in what equal loudness is perceived as then things get even more complicated when interpreting spec. This is (partly) why guitars some so damn loud with so little power and why bass/subs need so much power.

This is very true and shows the relative nature of perceived loudness. Listen to a song at a moderate volume level, paying attention to the bass and clarity of each instrument. Then substantially increase the volume level to a "very loud" level. Re-listen to that track at the new volume level and listen out for the clarity of each instrument again. Then drop the volume back to the previous level and it will sound almost silent and indistinct. I had a situation recently where I was watching John Wick on DVD with a mate. It's got a lot of mumbling so you have to put the volume up to hear it...but the action is missed very loud. My flat mate came home from a late night at work and freaked out at the volume as he walked in the front room. My db meter (iphone) stated that it was only 69db, not actually very loud but was massively loud compared to a quiet evening street cycle home. It's all relative perception.

 

[chilliwilli]

I agree that most bass players don't understand the technical data.
But I think that they should include it regardless.
So that their knowledge base can be expanded.
Deep immersion.
Remember getting your first computer?

I have used computers for a long time, but I don't really need to know the ins and outs of how it works or all that much about the components to get the most out of operating one. I can even get paid to use one with nothing, but the most basic understanding of computers and how they work guiding me.

You have to realize that a company that makes musical instrument amplifiers serves a consumer base that consists primarily of artists or other right brained people. A demographic that, on average, doesn't have a great deal of in depth technical knowledge and will most likely not benefit from or misinterpret all those specs.

If you want to be deeply immersed in the subject of sound amplification or another related field you should study physics or engineering at a university.

 

[Nev375]

What I'm implicating is the steep learning curve required.

People, generally speaking, have no interest in learning things. A small percentage have an area or two that they are willing to study (i.e. musicians, tech geeks, underwater basket weavers etc...) But most just want to screw around, eat, gossip and party.

Publishing tech data for the small percentage that are interested will just confuse and annoy the masses. Besides, if you are REALLY interested, the specs can be acquired from many companies if you ask the right person. ...Usually a technician in the service department. They are often bored and isolated away from human contact in their companies. They have access to all sorts of technical data and are often so excited to meet another person who is curious and possessing of more than 2 brain cells to rub together they will bend over backwards to help you out.

YMMV of course, but I've even gotten small parts and stuff sent to me free of charge by simply getting to the right person and asking the right questions.

 

[el murdoque]

I
E.g. A 10 watt amp can not produce sounds under 200 hz properly.

My rig for home practice which is a 10" speaker with a 5W amp does fall off a tiny bit when i go below the low E towards B on a fivestring. The Low B is still quite good, though. So there's a little drop from 40 to 30 Hz. But why should a 10W amp not be able to produce less than 200Hz ?

 

[tattooSAM]

When it comes to sound there is only one way to tell if something is good or not, and that is to listen to it with your own ears. No one ever walked away from a frequency response chart and said "man, that sounded great!"

The best advice given to the OP. ^^^^

The science of sound is complicated. Folks in this forum can tie us casual bass players in a knot with technical data. Although their work is critical to us sounding good, YOUR experience with said amplifier is what should be the driving factor for a purchase.
This is why us musicians have a responsibility to support the local music store in order to experience those amps in person!
No, I do not own a music store.

 

[mc900ftj]

IMO:. The actual reason:. A "note" is not really a single frequency. What you hear is made up of not only the fundamental, but other stuff that makes the "note" sound like something other than a single-frequency sine wave. So how any bit of equipment does at producing the sound you want is pretty subjective. It cannot be easily described on the pag, especially for purposes of comparing gear. Use your ears, buy where you can return it.

 

[Norwegian Bass]

I've done enough physics to the point that I can understand this stuff, but it's not something that's in my mind at all, when trying out, or judging, musical equipment in a practical situation. And as R Baer (and others) mentioned earlier in the thread; "frequency response" for instance ,in itself, pretty close to meaningless in the practical and/or musical sense when trying out amps, cabs etc. etc. for any bass player. I use my ears/brain; do I like it? Does what I do with my hands correspond with what comes out of the speakers to my taste correctly? That's all I care about, really.
I'm all for anyone publishing anything about whatever gear they make. But as we've seen in this thread; when people don't know what they're looking at; and starts contesting stuff; or making arguments and even judgements about quality!; without knowing what the hell they're talking about;.. from the point of view of being a manufacturer; I say....you don't need the grief!