Unfortunately this is true.
This is a good thing for us few who still wonder and ask.
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why do amp specs never show what is lowest note they can perform?
- Thread starter StringGirl
- Start date
Being an ERP systems designer, some of this conversation reminds me of how end users tend to focus on the wrong things first.
What they really need is functionality.
But what they often tend to focus on is CPU speeds, disk spindle speeds, my ram is bigger than your ram, etc. And not one of those specs comes close to providing the functional end result that they really need.
Now, back to my eight-88
What they really need is functionality.
But what they often tend to focus on is CPU speeds, disk spindle speeds, my ram is bigger than your ram, etc. And not one of those specs comes close to providing the functional end result that they really need.
Now, back to my eight-88
Al Kraft
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- May 2, 2016
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I could not agree more. Take two different 4 string basses, same strings, same P/J pick-up configuration, same scale length, exact same 6 foot instrument cable with exceptionally low capacitance per foot...plug both into the same bass amp and cab in an anechoic chamber with freshly calibrated lab instruments.
Then play each open string and record the the results on those lab instruments while having 5 bass players also listen to the tone at the same time. When comparing the tones between basses you'll have...well a lot to think about, since at least some of those data points are going to lead you to believe that they (hard data or bass players) aren't all describing the same event.
I can tell without a moment's hesitation from the specs alone that a $10 piezo super tweeter won't have chance of of success operating in woofer or sub-woofer territory. However, those same specs will not reliably tell me how effectively that same element might function as a high end driver in a bass cab, even with a well designed crossover.
Just listen to Aguilar, Berg, GK and Mesa 112 cabs and see if the published specs exactly predicted the subtle differences you're hearing (OBTW, all different flavors of good in my book). In fact I read once that the drivers in an Aguilar DB 112 are the same as in the GS 112, but no one would likely tell you that they sound alike - other design characteristics contribute to the "tonal voice differences".
I love specs and frequently let them guide me to where I'll look first and/or where I won't look at all. However when it's time to take out my wallet, my ears get the final vote - presuming that impedance and power handling (thermal and mechanical) and other "specs" like that are given appropriate consideration.
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You raise an interesting point. But in an era of crazy and often groundless litigation, most companies have learned that the less you say about anything, the better off you are. It's primarily defensive rather than done in an attempt to mislead. So unless amp companies legally have to furnish a spec, I wouldn't hope them to be anymore forthcoming than they already are.
As others mentioned, specs don't necessarily translate out to what you hear. And musical instrument amps are unusual in that ideal specs from an engineering perspective usually sound pretty awful when they're applied to a bass guitar amp.
I see you're rocking a GR. So you're probably interested in a very different sounding and performing rig than the average bass player (i.e. with strings) is looking for since Roland's electronic wizardry is handling everything we mere mortals need to get from a variety of elements that ranges from our string choice all the way down to what type of tubes or SS technology are found in the power stage of our amps. You don't actually need your amp to add anything to the mix like we do. I suspect you'd prefer it to just amplify and stay out of the way.
Different tech for different players. And for an electro-acoustic instrument like a bass guitar, the specs (other than what's usually published) don't tell you much about how it's going to sound. And they won't tell you much even then.
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Exactly.
Its the same with reviews, and it's a good thing I don't take on-line product reviews as gospel.
I love my Ric 4003 & my Hartke Hydrive 112 cabs, and I've seen more than a few not-so-kind reviews of each.
Four more problems with specs:
1. Specs invite competition. If we could reliably purchase amps based on specs, we'd look at two amps with the same specs, and choose the one that's cheaper. We might also discover that we don't need a new amp at all.
2. The curves look nasty, thus inviting controversy. Even supposedly high fidelity speakers have lumps and bumps in their response curves. And even nice looking curves expose the tradeoffs in speaker design.
3. Information overload. It may be possible to completely describe the performance of a speaker (of course it's possible) but hard to decide which key specs are the most important and worth publishing.
4. Anti-intellectualism. Present company excepted of course, I've learned that a lot of people are intimidated, or downright offended by a technical discussion.
This is why I encourage the OP to dig into some of the details of how the technology works, and come up with her own ideas for what factors are important.
1. Specs invite competition. If we could reliably purchase amps based on specs, we'd look at two amps with the same specs, and choose the one that's cheaper. We might also discover that we don't need a new amp at all.
2. The curves look nasty, thus inviting controversy. Even supposedly high fidelity speakers have lumps and bumps in their response curves. And even nice looking curves expose the tradeoffs in speaker design.
3. Information overload. It may be possible to completely describe the performance of a speaker (of course it's possible) but hard to decide which key specs are the most important and worth publishing.
4. Anti-intellectualism. Present company excepted of course, I've learned that a lot of people are intimidated, or downright offended by a technical discussion.
This is why I encourage the OP to dig into some of the details of how the technology works, and come up with her own ideas for what factors are important.
Lot of response here. TL;DR.
Are you talking amps? Or bass cabs?
Most amps do show the response. Most modern day amps are 20-20,000 hz. That will cover the low B and then some!
Now bass cabs, that is another story. They are bad for not showing the actual frequency response. I mean, they will say something like.......40-15,000 hz. But, they don't mention that the 40 hz is 5 db below flat response. So, the 40 hz is 50% lower in volume than it should be.
An example, Acme's Low B bass cabs can produce an open E string (41 hz) at + or - 3 db. In other words, it can produce 40 hz at flat response. But, the Acme produces the low B string at -6 db below flat. So yes, it can produce 31 hz but at a diminished db level. Acme's response is quite exceptional for a bass cab!
To me, it's pretty sad how many bass cabs can't produce a flat 41 hz of the E string. Many can't even produce 41 at all.
My .02 cents.
Are you talking amps? Or bass cabs?
Most amps do show the response. Most modern day amps are 20-20,000 hz. That will cover the low B and then some!
Now bass cabs, that is another story. They are bad for not showing the actual frequency response. I mean, they will say something like.......40-15,000 hz. But, they don't mention that the 40 hz is 5 db below flat response. So, the 40 hz is 50% lower in volume than it should be.
An example, Acme's Low B bass cabs can produce an open E string (41 hz) at + or - 3 db. In other words, it can produce 40 hz at flat response. But, the Acme produces the low B string at -6 db below flat. So yes, it can produce 31 hz but at a diminished db level. Acme's response is quite exceptional for a bass cab!
To me, it's pretty sad how many bass cabs can't produce a flat 41 hz of the E string. Many can't even produce 41 at all.
My .02 cents.
Amplifier makers don't publish the frequency response curves because they will give away what their baked in tone is.
Some speaker companies do, and even then, it doesn't tell the whole story about what tone it will produce.
I have a 25 year old Carvin 210 cabinet. The stock response curve was published (I dug it up years after I bought it used). Looking at it, it should not be a good sounding cabinet. I bought some high end Italian drivers and replaced the stock ones. They had a much broader response that went both lower and higher and could handle more power. They sounded absolutely horrible. I put the stock ones back in. To this day they still sound awesome, even with upright bass. Looking at paper, they should sound bad.
From then on, I used specs as a guide, but ultimately started using my ears.
Most electronic gear has a response range greater than what our ears can hear. The cabinet design is where most of the limitations are.
And, most cabs start decreasing response as you get down below the 50's. Even Fearful and other extended response high performance cabs start dipping before you get to low B, and so do high end PA subwoofers. But even those cabs can sound great when playing notes that low. Our brains fill in a lot of the gaps that the physical equipment have in their responses.
Some speaker companies do, and even then, it doesn't tell the whole story about what tone it will produce.
I have a 25 year old Carvin 210 cabinet. The stock response curve was published (I dug it up years after I bought it used). Looking at it, it should not be a good sounding cabinet. I bought some high end Italian drivers and replaced the stock ones. They had a much broader response that went both lower and higher and could handle more power. They sounded absolutely horrible. I put the stock ones back in. To this day they still sound awesome, even with upright bass. Looking at paper, they should sound bad.
From then on, I used specs as a guide, but ultimately started using my ears.
Most electronic gear has a response range greater than what our ears can hear. The cabinet design is where most of the limitations are.
And, most cabs start decreasing response as you get down below the 50's. Even Fearful and other extended response high performance cabs start dipping before you get to low B, and so do high end PA subwoofers. But even those cabs can sound great when playing notes that low. Our brains fill in a lot of the gaps that the physical equipment have in their responses.
My bass sounds great played through my 2 watt amplifier and 1" speakers. Headphones can be cool like that. I'd have a hard time strapping a 15" to my head.
What I meant since the very beginning is that knowing what pad your signal is going thru, is way better than not knowing.
Just by looking at this spec sheet, you can notice that even when the 2x10 and 4x10 cabinets are louder, the 1x15 goes lower.
I am not discussing the tone, I am just discussing the ability of the speakers to perform low freq.
Just by looking at this spec sheet, you can notice that even when the 2x10 and 4x10 cabinets are louder, the 1x15 goes lower.
I am not discussing the tone, I am just discussing the ability of the speakers to perform low freq.
And what real world usable conclusions are you drawing from this data?
I mean, other than the 15 of this brand responds to more low frequencies.
Give us some examples of what a person such as yourself might or might not choose to do in your bass playing because of this.
+1. I actually "moved up" to a 20 watt Peavey practice amp last year. I practiced for years with a 10 watt Squire guitar amp with a 6" speaker that I literally found for free. I could hear the low B just fine, fully accompanyed by an occasional fart. Now I have a huge 8 incher! I pack my gig rig away and only use it for gigs.
Your exactly right, I could care less. And my favorite gig amp rolls off at 60 hz anyway. You need tons of power to make that super low stuff work anyway right? And tons of money.........just to make your band sound terrible.
A 20 watt combo is a practice amp. If it's on, it's all good.
They tell you they probably sound very different and you need to go and listen to them.
That's what you take from the sheet?
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, that's for sure.
If you were just playing sine waves, it might be relevant. The ability of a speaker cabinet to reproduce the fundamental note of an electric bass guitar is not actually terribly relevant to how it will sound to your ear. As many others have said here, it's the overtones that we really hear and that make the electric bass sound like an electric bass. Knowing how the speaker cabinet will deal with a sine wave at 40hz is perhaps interesting, and perhaps has some correlation to how it will handle a low E or low B string, there's no substitute for playing through the amp/speaker cabinet, turning it up a bit, hitting the low notes, and seeing how it sounds / feels.
Let's not skip the fact that the "useable" lowest frequencies cited are at -10 dB, which makes them pretty useless for actual hearing when you consider equal-loudness curves show humans need boosted levels in low ranges for those frequencies to be perceived.
- Feb 12, 2006
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The -10dB response combined with the -3dB response gives somebody who understands what's going on a good indication of the mechanical power handling of the speaker, and the rough rate of rolloff of the low end. For this reason, I specify the -3, -6 and -10dB points along with thermal and mechanical power handling and the lowest frequency that the mechanical power handling spec applies to. Doing this, however, has generated some comments about providing "useless and confusing information" by those who don't know, or don't care to learn what it means and how important this data is in the real world when predicting how a speaker is likely suited for an application.
