Not every gig uses PA support. Its nice to have a rig you vibe with, its still a monitor alot of the time even with PA support.
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Not with me. When I'm going through the PA, my bass is coming through my monitor. Quiet stage volume, prevents phase issues.
Excellent! See my post above (#12, paragraph 3). Clearly, I'm not talking about you, then. If you're all set, then you're all set. I'm just providing info on alternatives that do work for me and others. Pro units like the Kemper Profiling Amp and the AxeFxII are very capable pieces of gear. They're just options, not the holy grail. Neither is mic'ing a holy grail live necessity. Use what works for you, whatever that may be. JMHO.
Good point:
- See @rufus.K
- quiet stages with full IEM mixes require all guitars and basses using full amp/cabinet emulations for their tones. Not my thing, personally, but different strokes.
- using amp/cabinet modeling with full range PA cabinets as a (modular) basis for a stage rig, thus no traditional amp/cab needed = not wasting money. =)
- You can still fully utilize the traditional stage rig of your choice and utilize cabinet emulation technology (an IR capture of your speaker) to your benefit as described in my post #12. They are not mutually exclusive.
Honestly, @tfer, it sounds like you've got a great situation going. Perhaps you can describe the type of music you're performing and the types of venues where you gig and see if it squares with what the OP is doing or aspiring to do. You may be his best resource. In the meantime, I'm just presenting viable options, not holy grails. ;-)
I'd agree that my situation is great. I'd also agree that I'm a stubborn S.O.B.!
I've used Hartke amps and cabs for years, because I really don't like the "P-bass into Ampeg" sound that is so common. I like a deep, rich, bottom end, with upper midrange clarity. Humbuckers into a tube pre-amp, into aluminum drivers gives me the sound that I love, and that is why I have always insisted on a microphone.
Granted, the microphone introduces a little hiss and occasional background noise, but it's not noticeable when you are playing live.
My band plays country (none of that Bro-country stuff though...!) and classic rock in dance halls to crowds that are usually between 200-400 people. We generally run our own PA, but have FOH support about a third of the time. And I've never had a sound guy who insisted on a DI - they have all been accommodating.
Our whole band, except an acoustic guitar mics the amps. My pet peeve, is that nobody ever tells a guitarist to take that SM57 off of that Fender Twin, or Marshall 4X12, and demands that they run a direct line. My amp and cabinet is just as much a part of my sound, as that JCM is to that guitarist.
I've used Hartke amps and cabs for years, because I really don't like the "P-bass into Ampeg" sound that is so common. I like a deep, rich, bottom end, with upper midrange clarity. Humbuckers into a tube pre-amp, into aluminum drivers gives me the sound that I love, and that is why I have always insisted on a microphone.
Granted, the microphone introduces a little hiss and occasional background noise, but it's not noticeable when you are playing live.
My band plays country (none of that Bro-country stuff though...!) and classic rock in dance halls to crowds that are usually between 200-400 people. We generally run our own PA, but have FOH support about a third of the time. And I've never had a sound guy who insisted on a DI - they have all been accommodating.
Our whole band, except an acoustic guitar mics the amps. My pet peeve, is that nobody ever tells a guitarist to take that SM57 off of that Fender Twin, or Marshall 4X12, and demands that they run a direct line. My amp and cabinet is just as much a part of my sound, as that JCM is to that guitarist.
Having both done is good living, IME. Most places just take my DI, but I've grown to have really good expectations from the dual source.
This. I go with whatever the engineer wants, but I cant remember a single occasion where there wasn't a DI for the bass. If he/she want's to ad a mic as well, that's great and usually an indication that she/he cares about the bass sound. But I guess most of the time the signal will be mostly DI anyway.
Then again, for guitar I would be quite surprised if the amp wasn't mic'ed.
The soundman works for the band. It's his responsibility to make the musicians sound the way they want, and then fit the pieces of the puzzle together.
I always run both - Playing alot of distorted / fuzzed out basses, they never sound good through a DI. Always mic up the 15" to get that sizzle, and DI for low-end. Works perfectly.
I never see guitarists with a DI, unless you use a Kemper / AxeFX or something - most mic up, and thats it
I never see guitarists with a DI, unless you use a Kemper / AxeFX or something - most mic up, and thats it
Sounding good through an amp is a learned skill. Nobody is born knowing how to play a bass through an amp. Think back to when you were first starting and hadn't learned how to control the sound out of your amp. On a bad day you might get some hiss, static, feedback, clank, booming, etc. and even on a good day, some of your notes would be too quiet, some would be too loud, some would be thin, others would be muffled. Most players practice this skill frequently, so most of us are able to achieve pretty good tone after a year or two playing our basses through amps.
Sounding good through a DI is also a learned skill we are not inherently born with. The difference is that most people practice with an amp every day, but they don't practice using a DI until they are actually on the stage or in the recording studio. So we blame the DI for our own lack of skill; this is understandable human nature. But, musicians who practice with a DI every day (ranging from pro studio musicians to apartment-dwelling amateurs who headphone-practice) are able to achieve great tone as they put in the hours of practice.
The top pros I have met tend to have both of these skills (sounding good through an amp and sounding good through a DI) in their "musical toolbox."
The way I like to think about it is that everyone in that room, from the musicians on stage to the bartender serving drinks, works for the audience.
Sounding good through a DI is also a learned skill we are not inherently born with. The difference is that most people practice with an amp every day, but they don't practice using a DI until they are actually on the stage or in the recording studio. So we blame the DI for our own lack of skill; this is understandable human nature. But, musicians who practice with a DI every day (ranging from pro studio musicians to apartment-dwelling amateurs who headphone-practice) are able to achieve great tone as they put in the hours of practice.
The top pros I have met tend to have both of these skills (sounding good through an amp and sounding good through a DI) in their "musical toolbox."
The way I like to think about it is that everyone in that room, from the musicians on stage to the bartender serving drinks, works for the audience.
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I rarely ever work for a band. In my neck of the woods, it is generally a festival, promoter or venue that hires me. For the most part, local bands don't bother as the economics don't support an additional couple of hun for sound.
In part that is kind a the problem with the whole mic vs di thread thread, or the typical bass player vs the sound guy thread as well. Context is everything. Are we talking Sting or Tim Commerford ? OK those guys can have whatever they want as well as a bass tech... If we're talking the local guys, frankly they don't generally have a great understanding of how the bass sounds out front as they haven't logged the time doing sound to get the experience. And they aren't usually willing to pay the going rate for a sound guy of their own...
If we're talking the Van tour contingent (Ford Econoline, not the skate shoe guys) they are relying on provided backline at least half the time... And they are like super stoked when the sound guy is friendly and backlined bass amp isn't toast from the start...
If it is a typical multi- band night - and you're the opener... Be happy if you get to use your rig and my di and please get it off the stage as soon as your last note is finished ringing... One club in portland, OR (Dante's for the locals) my bass rig actually got moved to the sidewalk, in the rain within 10 minutes of the end of our set. Fire Marshall wouldn't allow gear to be staged in a hallway for load out. Other than that- a fantastic evening opening for The Red Elvises... Thank goodness for covers... Thank goodness for drivers...
It is incredibly rare for me to have a bass rig show up that I would choose to play through rather than my personal GK/fEarful rig - Radial DI, not mic'ed by the way. It does happen, just not often...
If someone is willing to pay the rate, I have an extra 421 in my kit that I'm happy to deploy on a bass cab and extra time in my schedule to work with bands ahead of time, get familiar with their material, set up scenes, etc... That never actually happens though and the reality is that it can be a communications chore just getting people to provide a stage plot with clearly labeled stage right/left and an accurate input list, trust me, I really, really appreciate those bands that have accurate info and provide it well ahead of schedule.
And so my Radial and Countryman DI's see a lot of use...
Different circumstances.
We've played 2 festivals, and both times my rig was used as the backline. Both times, it was miked using my gear.
Like I stated previously, we normally place country dances in community halls. We also have a biweekly gig at a local bar that doesn't require any FOH support - we use our own PA, and the amps are heard live from the stage.
We've played 2 festivals, and both times my rig was used as the backline. Both times, it was miked using my gear.
Like I stated previously, we normally place country dances in community halls. We also have a biweekly gig at a local bar that doesn't require any FOH support - we use our own PA, and the amps are heard live from the stage.
Agree with everything you stated except the last part. I've never heard anyone say "let's go to the bar. Bob is running the sound, and he's really good!"Sounding good through an amp is a learned skill. Nobody is born knowing how to play a bass through an amp. Think back to when you were first starting and hadn't learned how to control the sound out of your amp. On a bad day you might get some hiss, static, feedback, clank, booming, etc. and even on a good day, some of your notes would be too quiet, some would be too loud, some would be thin, others would be muffled. Most players practice this skill frequently, so most of us are able to achieve pretty good tone after a year or two playing our basses through amps.
Sounding good through a DI is also a learned skill we are not inherently born with. The difference is that most people practice with an amp every day, but they don't practice using a DI until they are actually on the stage or in the recording studio. So we blame the DI for our own lack of skill; this is understandable human nature. But, musicians who practice with a DI every day (ranging from pro studio musicians to apartment-dwelling amateurs who headphone-practice) are able to achieve great tone as they put in the hours of practice.
The top pros I have met tend to have both of these skills (sounding good through an amp and sounding good through a DI) in their "musical toolbox."
The way I like to think about it is that everyone in that room, from the musicians on stage to the bartender serving drinks, works for the audience.
I bet you for every 1 person saying "let's go to the bar, Mushroo has a great rig!" there are 10 people saying "let's go to the bar, I feel like dancing" or "let's go to the bar, they make a great margarita." I try to be humble that the bartender and soundman have much more important jobs than I do.
s0c9
Supporting Member
They ARE dancing to the band, but... most don't know (and don't care) about YOUR sound... what they care about is the end product.. does the band's music sound good or not! The FOH guys is as much a part of that sound as the source is. If they believe it's good, they'll let you know.. but they could care less if that comes from a DI or a mic'd bass rig.
I play one local venue (and open for national acts that play there) about 5 times a year.. 4- nights a piece. 3 of those 4 nights we're there to get people to dance, eat and drink.
The 4th night is to fire up the crowd for the headliner, then close out the night (until 2:00 am) once they get done.
The punters care that we sound good, not "wow, the bass sounds cool! It must be mic'd".
On those nights we get up to 1500 people there, 500+ average on the other nights.
No-one has EVER asked how come I don't mic my bass rig.
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s0c9
Supporting Member
Ideally yes, but so-o many cases that is not true.. the average house guy (I know) could care less about it. If you're a local band in a "A" venue, you don't get much say in the matter, as there's 100 bands lined up waiting to take your spot if you are deemed "difficult" to work with. Most I work with don't want to mess with stage bleed, etc. and do the same thing for different bands week after week. They get input levels, set up the board at a quick sound check, might adjust during the first song or two..then done. Walk away..don't push faders, adjust vocal effects during a set. As long as it sounds reasonable.. they are good to go.
If I'm touring with a BE, then sure.. that's what they are there for.
You have to put it in perspective as @4Mal stated above.
I go direct out of my amp, not before. So I get a good amount of my tone from my amp settings. I've never gone direct before getting to my amp.
We have 2 guitar players. One has 2 heads both with DI out. We play small bars and have a friend that helps with sound. Going direct really helps clean up the sound and reduce feedback and background noise in the mix, especially the IEM mixes.
Drummer is electronic drums. My amp is on 0 volume onstage. It's all in my IEM and FOH. If we had a PA problem I could play. ( LOL but the drummer can't ). The second guitar player is looking at amps with DI outs or a modeling pedal.
It's mostly practical. Sounds fine to us, it's quiet and allows us to control stage volume better. We can practice at the guitar players home while his wife is upstairs grading papers without her hearing anything except our vocals. Our practice and stage volume is talking level. That's more related to electronic drums and individual IEMs but having 0 guitar and bass makes it quieter.
No cool feedback sustain though. But we aren't that kind of band anyway.
We have 2 guitar players. One has 2 heads both with DI out. We play small bars and have a friend that helps with sound. Going direct really helps clean up the sound and reduce feedback and background noise in the mix, especially the IEM mixes.
Drummer is electronic drums. My amp is on 0 volume onstage. It's all in my IEM and FOH. If we had a PA problem I could play. ( LOL but the drummer can't ). The second guitar player is looking at amps with DI outs or a modeling pedal.
It's mostly practical. Sounds fine to us, it's quiet and allows us to control stage volume better. We can practice at the guitar players home while his wife is upstairs grading papers without her hearing anything except our vocals. Our practice and stage volume is talking level. That's more related to electronic drums and individual IEMs but having 0 guitar and bass makes it quieter.
No cool feedback sustain though. But we aren't that kind of band anyway.
There is a huge assumption being made that the band has no idea how they should sound.
I don't DI because my sound, thought my cabinets sits exceedingly well with our drum sound. Just like it's supposed to. It's why I've chosen the gear that I use.
I've never had a soundman complain about anyone in our band, because we are professionals and we know what we are doing.
I don't DI because my sound, thought my cabinets sits exceedingly well with our drum sound. Just like it's supposed to. It's why I've chosen the gear that I use.
I've never had a soundman complain about anyone in our band, because we are professionals and we know what we are doing.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Every venue I've been to with FOH, the default is always DI. I don't use effects, and figure that the soundperson sitting in the audience will have a better idea what is coming through the mains than I will standing on stage in front of my amp and the monitors. I talk with him/her when I can before the show to let them know what sound I am looking for. I figure they can take any signal and make it sound good or like !@#$!@ if they want - better to keep me on their good side.
