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I'm curious. Why use any amp if you're going DI from your bass before your amp? Why not just use a DI box and listen through the monitors?
I love not having to carry the room with my amp, our soundguy ( friend ) loves having complete control over the volume of all the instruments. I find it interesting that people would spend a lot of money on amps and cabinets, go DI pre amplifier and have only the tone of the bass or the mixer be what the house hears? I"m not saying one is better than another.. I'm curious. I like the DI out of my amp, I have the cabs there in case something goes wrong with the PA or mixer. I also have a small passive direct box in case my amp dies.. I would just go direct.
I realize a lot of bands play without FOH support for bass... that question doesnt apply to them. I guess it partly applies to bands with a loud stage volume AND still running through house. Just curious.. that's all
I always use a DI, and just have my amp as on stage monitor for the band.
To answer Scottkarch's question, many monitors, especially in smaller clubs are not really up to the task of delivering bass guitar to the band members. I find using my bass amp (or a provided backline) is perfect for bringing bass to everyone on the stage. Obviously, if you have powerful monitors or IEM systems you definitely can forgo the amp.
My bass sound is primarily "me + Sadowsky preamp (in the bass) + Radial Bassbone DI", I purposely try and have the amp as flat and non-coloring as possible. That allows me to always be happy with my DI sound and I find I can get very near my own sound with any backline, which is another plus.
Later
Rob
To answer Scottkarch's question, many monitors, especially in smaller clubs are not really up to the task of delivering bass guitar to the band members. I find using my bass amp (or a provided backline) is perfect for bringing bass to everyone on the stage. Obviously, if you have powerful monitors or IEM systems you definitely can forgo the amp.
My bass sound is primarily "me + Sadowsky preamp (in the bass) + Radial Bassbone DI", I purposely try and have the amp as flat and non-coloring as possible. That allows me to always be happy with my DI sound and I find I can get very near my own sound with any backline, which is another plus.
Later
Rob
Having my amp with built in DI that I like with me always provides continuity for me. With the send on PRE, the sound person can do what they like with it, regardless what I do on stage.
I'm not bothered if they use a mic, I don't really care, I'm not the sound guy. If I change settings on the amp through the show, it affects him, good or bad.
But the rationale for bringing a micro head and 1x12 isn't hard to justify for the extra 5 minute of setup. It total weight,30lbs... no big deal.
I'm not bothered if they use a mic, I don't really care, I'm not the sound guy. If I change settings on the amp through the show, it affects him, good or bad.
But the rationale for bringing a micro head and 1x12 isn't hard to justify for the extra 5 minute of setup. It total weight,30lbs... no big deal.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
For a number of reasons:
- you don't know what the monitors will be - on most venues, they are not exactly built to reproduce bass.
- many of us play places where there often is no FOH for more than vocals and maybe keys.
- also just habit - bring the same rig every time.
I like my DI box. I can dial my sound into it and then XLR out to the board, plus 1/4" to my amp.
My VT Bass DI is always on stage and active...with or without PA support, amp or no amp.
I prefer amp and PA together via the box.
My VT Bass DI is always on stage and active...with or without PA support, amp or no amp.
I prefer amp and PA together via the box.
s0c9
Supporting Member
Maybe, but that doesn't alter having to work with the guy out front.
Having followed this thread, it occurred to me that there's confusion on what I (or others who work FOH) mean by the use of the term DI...
It doesn't necessarily mean a box sitting on the floor - with a Low-Z transformer'd (or not) out to FOH, active/passive with a 1/4 split to feed your amp input, like a sansamp. A DI (in my FOH world) also includes the XLR LINE OUT one finds on the back of MOST modern bass amps. Some would label that a direct out, but it's the same thing to the guy at FOH.
To be clear:
- I will always [TRY to] use the XLR on the back of the amp (preferably pre-EQ) first.
- Next would be mic'ing the cab.
- I would never expect a bassist to connect to a DI box (directly from their bass) unless all other options had failed.
s0c9
Supporting Member
Ha!! Never! Never, I tell you!! (can't remember which movie that was from.. Young Frankenstein comes to mind, tho)
I guess we'll just have to get along less than famously..
As a bassist and former professional live mix-operator, I always want a good DI to be on the bass between the instrument and the amp, because IMO, a good Di almost always sounds better than what you'll get out of the XLR output on the head. A good mic is fine to use in addition to capture the cab tone. Blend to what suits the gig.
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Can you absolutely say, that my Hartke cabinets with Hydrive and XL aluminum cones don't carry a certain character that would be lost by running the XLR from the back of my LH500 amps? Or, if I were using Ampeg 4X10 cabinets, that nothing valuable would be lost?Ha!! Never! Never, I tell you!! (can't remember which movie that was from.. Young Frankenstein comes to mind, tho)
I guess we'll just have to get along less than famously..
Using super cardoid microphones almost completely eliminates background noise and crosstalk - and is crosstalk really a big deal, when you mic the snare, kick and multiple toms along with overheads for the cymbals without losing sleep?
My thoughts are that soundmen have gotten increasingly lazy, and would rather just DI the bass, because...."well, it worked yesterday..." Bassists are the ones getting shafted here; nobody seriously expects a guitarist to DI instead of using their amps. It literally takes me 10 minutes to set my mic, head up the the front of the house, sit with the soundguy wirelessly, and play with the drummer to set final levels and tweak the EQ. We are both happy, the band sounds like it should, and the crowd hears the music the way that we play it.
I am confused by the number of threads where bassists talk about how their Ampeg and P-Bass cut through the mix, when they aren't actually using that rig?
s0c9
Supporting Member
No, of course not..
But the guy sitting in seat 17, 24 rows up in the balcony upper level won't know, or CARE whether you used the Hartke or Ampeg cabs.
And given the venues you say you play, neither will Fred who's standing back by the bar.
But, they will both know whether what they hear sounds good tho.. and that IS the job of FOH.
That's the part you seem to be missing.. and no amount of explanation will change that for you.
So I'm out..
And that's why I mic.
There is no DI in the world that sounds as good as a well made cabinet.
)
Okay, I lied....
There, fixed that for ya.
(if anyone cares, I used both a DI and good mic when I was doing audio)
There, fixed that for ya.
(if anyone cares, I used both a DI and good mic when I was doing audio)
Errr... That doesn't ring as true to me, though you may believe it at jihadi level. See I actually like the sound of my basses. I don't need the amp to be happy. When I practice at home, the majority of the time, I'm direct into the board using a set of phones or my 2.1 setup to monitor. Add a U5 to the mix and Katy bar the door, damn that sounds good to me. If I need effects, I can either use the time based stufff on board, my pedal board or one of a few favorite 'hair-comps' like the Durham SexDrive or Compulator. Sounds awesome to me.
My mb-fusion and fEarful rig does a nice neutral plus a mild scoop. Makes a great monitor and with a couple of kw181's under k12's out front, it just doesn't need to work very hard. So I can dial in whatever eq sounds good to me on stage and send the direct to the board from the radial on my pedal board... Out there at the board there is a 4 band semi parametric, a comp/limiter and an hpf dedicated on each channel and a 31 band graphic on each output, so plenty of room to address venue issues.
...and if I mic those Ampeg 4x10's, I'll spend a ton of EQ fixing them. As 40 feet away, they sound nothing like they do 16 feet away. And that nice juicy tone that someone painstakingly dialed in, has turned to mush. This is why if we mic, we also have the DI... We can use it to restore some punch... I am a bass player. I listen with bass player ears. In my little operation, we architect the low end and build on that... Has the additional advantage of making the guitarist go whut?
If you have the time, the impetus... Find a local sound company, develop a relationship and maybe do some grunt stage handing. Sit with the FOH and side stage guys - if we know you, we don't generally bite - unless the substance is rolling down hill and you are in the way.. situational awareness as my Marine buddies say... Give them a few songs to settle in amd then observe and listen. If the guys are good, you will learn a ton. There is a cost to education. In this case it is your time. If you aren't a jamoke, you'll probably be on the payroll come festival season when we are cash rich and back poor ;-)
And or course we make both of the bucks we get so they can keep each other warm... It is a labor of love... Damn rewarding when you get the right band on the right night in the right place... I did one show last summer that was transcendent. The glow of that one is getting me over the indoor winter season...
There probably are lazy sound guys, I just don't happen to know any... I do know a couple whose mixes I disagree with but they are codgers with blown ears 4k and up so they mix brighter than I can stand... They've been at the game too long, need to retire from the board and move on to stage manager. Lazy they are not...
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I'm not going to tell you to not DI. I'm explaining why I don't.
My cabinets are a vital part of how I hear my bass, and I refuse to compromise that. It's amusing that there is far more pushback here than from any soundman I've ever experienced. I have yet to have a single one hand me a DI, when they see me set up my mic stand in front of my cabinet.
My cabinets are a vital part of how I hear my bass, and I refuse to compromise that. It's amusing that there is far more pushback here than from any soundman I've ever experienced. I have yet to have a single one hand me a DI, when they see me set up my mic stand in front of my cabinet.
s0c9
Supporting Member
LOL, what's amusing is that you refuse to believe what sound guys (who are also bassists) with years of experience are TRYING telling you.
Your refusal to compromise is fine . Mic'ing your cab (or DI) makes no difference to me at FOH if I'm mixing you - especially if you are a local yokel. If you're a touring/national act with your own BE it won't be my issue. But if I mix, I will make what I get fed "fit" into the mix, factoring in room, etc. Whether it a DI or a mic feed. Your cabs are not relevant.
Once I remove the flub from the drummers badly tuned kick, put a High Pass on the keys, I'll EQ the bass to fit in the mix.
The point you don't seem to be getting is that you have NO control over what gets put into the PA, so why not make life a little easier for the FOH guy, work with them and everyone is happy.
Walking up to the FOH guy and telling them how to mix your sound (as you said you do) is not going to win you too many friends. They'll likely nod their heads, tweak a few knobs, then do what they want while you are on the stage. And if they really get upset, good luck!
Be the bass player.. let FOH do their job.
That's life.. sorry.
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