Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

[JimmyM]

Disingenuous? How? An SMPS is a power supply section. It stands for "switch-mode power supply."

You didn't make any distinctions about kinds of transformer in your first post.

Good transformers add weight to the signal? Are you saying that an amp weighs more when a signal is passing through it?

my signal has a heavy heavy flow, man

anyway, the ot argument would be valid if not for those who assign miracle properties to power trannies, too. me, i find it very hard to do so without taking everything else into consideration, of which i know zip about. i tried to learn it, but it takes being able to solder, and after 35 years of practice, i still can't solder.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Well I can solder just fine thank you. Again I will use the microphone preamp as an example. I have tube and solidstate mic pres. I have transformer topology mic pres and those that use op amps on the inputs and outputs. The transformer based mic pres sound much more alike, regardless of the gain elements. The non-transformer based tube pres I have sound good, but actually sound less "tubey" to me than the discrete transistor, transformer input/output mic pres.
So IMHO and IME it is the non-linearity of the transformers that add compression (heft) to the signal. SMPS designs are nice for light weight and efficiency, but they are not sought after for their pleasing non-linearities.
The transformer in a SMPS is not in the audio path, so it is irrelevant.
I would like to see someone smarter than me utilize SMPS in a tube bass head so we could downsize at least one of the major contributors to weight (physical not audible).

 

[johnk_10]

IME, when you get into the really high end mic pres, it can be quite different. the transformerless ones in my 1979 (Rupert Neve designed) Amek M3000 sound bigger, fatter and more tube-like than the transformered ones. my console was originally purchased by Paul Ratajczak, that now has 3 state of the art million dollar consoles in his studio (Neve, SSL's etc.) and he thought so too, so i really don't subscribe to the concept that it has to have a transformer to sound like tubes anymore.

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

IME, when you get into the really high end mic pres, it can be quite different. the transformerless ones in my 1979 (Rupert Neve designed) Amek M3000 sound bigger, fatter and more tube-like than the transformered ones. my console was originally purchased by Paul Ratajczak, that now has 3 state of the art million dollar consoles in his studio (Neve, SSL's etc.) and he thought so too, so i really don't subscribe to the concept that it has to have a transformer to sound like tubes anymore.

a well designed transformer should have little to no affect on the tone as is!

 

[mongo2]

a well designed transformer should have little to no affect on the tone as is!

The general case of that is a well designed transformer will produce the desired tone.

 

[R. Laevinus]

To the OP:

The real reason I first tried an all-tube amp (on rental) was to stop my guitarist at the time from complaining about my preference for SS.

I bought it a month later because it was the first amp I'd ever played that sounded like what I heard in my head.

I'm happily using both all-tube and hybrid heads now.

 

[johnk_10]

a well designed transformer should have little to no affect on the tone as is!

i'm not sure what you are saying? its not that the transformered inputs have an inferior 'tone', they sound awesome, but the transformerless ones sound bigger and better in our console.

 

[xk49w]

i'm not sure what you are saying? its not that the transformered inputs have an inferior 'tone', they sound awesome, but the transformerless ones sound bigger and better in our console.

I thought the deal with transformer input mic pres was being able to get good common-mode rejection without destroying the noise figure. There are some quiet op-amps out there now though.

Sorry for the OT diversion. Carry on.

 

[Govier966]

placebo effect? jk i think it has to do with the simplicity of tube amps. on an amp with like 40 knobs its easy to mess up your tone. on something like an orange its a lot harder to dial a bad sound.

 

[johnk_10]

I thought the deal with transformer input mic pres was being able to get good common-mode rejection without destroying the noise figure. There are some quiet op-amps out there now though.

i think that you are correct, but our t-less ones are actually a little bit quieter than our x-formered ones too.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

So IMHO and IME it is the non-linearity of the transformers that add compression (heft) to the signal.

Perhaps. In a previous post, though, you also claimed that transformers are transparent.

IME, better transformers (e.g., Jensen, Lundahl, et al), distort the signal very, very minimally when they're properly implemented in audio circuits.

SMPS designs are nice for light weight and efficiency, but they are not sought after for their pleasing non-linearities.

Power supplies are inherently non-linear, but that is irrelevent. I don't know of any criteria to judge their nonlinearities as pleasing or not.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

The general case of that is a well designed transformer will produce the desired tone.

In that case, you might be able to make a really great processing box by cascading a bunch of "well designed transformers."

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

I thought the deal with transformer input mic pres was being able to get good common-mode rejection without destroying the noise figure. There are some quiet op-amps out there now though.

True. There are also some pretty high-performance single-chip mic pres and balanced line receivers.

 

[seamonkey]

IME, better transformers (e.g., Jensen, Lundahl, et al), distort the signal very, very minimally when they're properly implemented in audio circuits.

But what kind of distortion?, and will the harmonics be mostly even or odd?

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Perhaps. In a previous post, though, you also claimed that transformers are transparent.

IME, better transformers (e.g., Jensen, Lundahl, et al), distort the signal very, very minimally when they're properly implemented in audio circuits.

Power supplies are inherently non-linear, but that is irrelevent. I don't know of any criteria to judge their nonlinearities as pleasing or not.

Yes, transformers can be both transparent and non-linear. Tube amps are well known for being nonlinear when measured but sounding transparent.

You dont have to have criteria to judge, it just makes it easier to stick your neck out when you have the logical argument of numbers to back you up. But since we are talking about "why we like tube amps" not whether they are louder or better than the alternatives, not numbers are needed. Its subjective from the get go.

As far as the non-tube, non transformer Amek console sounding great, yeah just about everything Rupert Neve touches turns into gold. That man has a great understanding of mic pres, transformers and EQs than anyone alive.
More to the point, for what you want from a tube/transformer topology mic pre, this mixer does that in spades. Maybe I would walk in the door at your studio and be likewise blown away. Or maybe I would hate it. I hate SSL mixers for instance. I also havent ever used a U87 that I liked. Recording gear is subjective in that way as well.

As far as transformers go there are APIs and Neves. Both very different sounding pres. But damned if I cant hear that transformer doing its thing with my music. (also myPM1000's great pres and cheap too!)

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Yes, transformers can be both transparent and non-linear.

Simultaneously? Not unless you change the definition of at least one of the words.

yeah just about everything Rupert Neve touches turns into gold. That man has a great understanding of mic pres, transformers and EQs than anyone alive.

I'll mention that to him next time I see him. Rupert knows how transformers work and I don't think he's prone to making exaggerated claims about them.

 

[johnk_10]

Maybe I would walk in the door at your studio and be likewise blown away. Or maybe I would hate it.

well, all i can say is, if you liked the sound of the beatle's recordings, you'd love it.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

placebo effect? jk i think it has to do with the simplicity of tube amps. on an amp with like 40 knobs its easy to mess up your tone. on something like an orange its a lot harder to dial a bad sound.

I've played SS amps with simple tone layouts.

And it depends on which Orange you're talking about.

well, all i can say is, if you liked the sound of the beatle's recordings, you'd love it.

Which ones? Are we talking Meet The Beatles or Abbey Road?

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

You dont have to have criteria to judge, it just makes it easier to stick your neck out when you have the logical argument of numbers to back you up.

No, I brought up "criteria" jokingly--a little spoof of "pleasant" (or even "unpleasant") nonlinearities in a power supply.

 

[johnk_10]

Which ones? Are we talking Meet The Beatles or Abbey Road?

abbey road mostly, but just about anything they did from the white album onward.