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Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

#261
IMO, most people that haven't spent a great deal of time on stage playing with a tube amp in a band don't really know what alot of us are talking about. it's one thing to sit in your living room or in a music store, and listen to one, but another thing entirely, when one is pushing some air behind you in a full band mix and feeling its response. IME, no hybrid has ever captured the same touch-sensitive dynamics and the feeling of being 'connected' to your amp that a tube amp does inherently, and i feel that i still own enough high end tube pre channel strips/SS poweramps to determine that.
 
#263
seamonkey said:
What a bunch of ... from Mercury Magnetics:
"On the other hand, the presence of odd harmonics in music is generally annoying. Better-sounding amps work to minimize these odd harmonics. At Mercury we design and build transformers that enable your amp’s circuitry to emphasize even order harmonics between specific frequency ranges. Our methods intentionally showcase the virtues of electric guitar tone."

What? - do they purposely take a center tap a wind the sides differently? The whole point of symmetry, matched tubes, bias, is to achieve even symmetry which the goal is to minimize even harmonics.

I don't know what keeps the "even" versus "odd" harmonic thing alive, but most of the folklore is wrong, or gets repeated wrong.
Click to expand...

Man, I knew I needed a nod and a wink for that first sentence. :rollno:

The MM reference is to BS delivered to an (assumed) technically ignorant reader. The rest of the post is not.
 
#264
seamonkey said:
What a bunch of ... from Mercury Magnetics:
"On the other hand, the presence of odd harmonics in music is generally annoying. Better-sounding amps work to minimize these odd harmonics. At Mercury we design and build transformers that enable your amp’s circuitry to emphasize even order harmonics between specific frequency ranges. Our methods intentionally showcase the virtues of electric guitar tone."

What? - do they purposely take a center tap a wind the sides differently? The whole point of symmetry, matched tubes, bias, is to achieve even symmetry which the goal is to minimize even harmonics.

I don't know what keeps the "even" versus "odd" harmonic thing alive, but most of the folklore is wrong, or gets repeated wrong.
Click to expand...
i prefer to get my technical advice about tube amps from someone who has actually used one outside of gc. so thanks but no thanks.
 
#265
JimmyM said:
i prefer to get my technical advice about tube amps from someone who has actually used one outside of gc. so thanks but no thanks.
Click to expand...

It doesn't require testing an amp on stage, or even a trip to GC, to know that many of the technical claims surrounding tube amp design are false.

I think it's possible for us to know what tone we like without knowing how our amps actually produce that tone. But if we start claiming that we understand things like the harmonic series and the behavior of transformers, then we are opening ourselves up to being either right or wrong about it.
 
#266
johnk_10 said:
IMO, most people that haven't spent a great deal of time on stage playing with a tube amp in a band don't really know what alot of us are talking about. it's one thing to sit in your living room or in a music store, and listen to one, but another thing entirely, when one is pushing some air behind you in a full band mix and feeling its response. IME, no hybrid has ever captured the same touch-sensitive dynamics and the feeling of being 'connected' to your amp that a tube amp does inherently, and i feel that i still own enough high end tube pre channel strips/SS poweramps to determine that.
Click to expand...

I agree completely with the 'feel' thing...I never have tried to explain it to anyone...either you have felt it or you haven't. That said, I have been solid state output for decades and won't be going back to all tube rigs...I can come darn close to the 'sound' with my SS rigs...but, I will be first to admit that they don't have the 'feel' of all-tube setups...

Kim
 
#268
fdeck said:
It doesn't require testing an amp on stage, or even a trip to GC, to know that many of the technical claims surrounding tube amp design are false.

I think it's possible for us to know what tone we like without knowing how our amps actually produce that tone. But if we start claiming that we understand things like the harmonic series and the behavior of transformers, then we are opening ourselves up to being either right or wrong about it.
Click to expand...
maybe i phrased that wrong, then. maybe i should have said "i like to get my technical advice about tubes from someone who some respect for tubes and has played one outside of gc."
 
#269
fdeck said:
It doesn't require testing an amp on stage, or even a trip to GC, to know that many of the technical claims surrounding tube amp design are false.

I think it's possible for us to know what tone we like without knowing how our amps actually produce that tone. But if we start claiming that we understand things like the harmonic series and the behavior of transformers, then we are opening ourselves up to being either right or wrong about it.
Click to expand...

+1. Like I said somewhere else around here, the real model of an output (or any) transformer contains resistance, inductance, and capacitance. So what you get when you start to have an amplifier stage clip into one terminated into a speaker (load) is not as simple as most folks assume.

A complete model also shows you that when connected to a real world loudspeaker, the primary impedance of the transformer will vary with frequency as the speaker (load) impedance does, superimposed on top of the response of the transformer itself (what you see with the input and output terminated in pure resistances instead of tubes and a speaker). The output tubes won't see the same impedance at all frequencies, and so they will behave differently at different frequencies. Sound coloration, anyone? Need for negative feedback to linearize the system?

An output transformer might look like a couple of coils of wire wound on a core on the schematic, but the people here who have designed with them know just how far they are from that simple symbol.
 
#270
okcrum said:
+1. Like I said somewhere else around here, the real model of an output (or any) transformer contains resistance, inductance, and capacitance. So what you get when you start to have an amplifier stage clip into one terminated into a speaker (load) is not as simple as most folks assume.

A complete model also shows you that when connected to a real world loudspeaker, the primary impedance of the transformer will vary with frequency as the speaker (load) impedance does, superimposed on top of the response of the transformer itself (what you see with the input and output terminated in pure resistances instead of tubes and a speaker). The output tubes won't see the same impedance at all frequencies, and so they will behave differently at different frequencies. Sound coloration, anyone? Need for negative feedback to linearize the system?

An output transformer might look like a couple of coils of wire wound on a core on the schematic, but the people here who have designed with them know just how far they are from that simple symbol.
Click to expand...

+1

And that frequency response is the first graph of this paper
Link Removed
One thing has changed since 1981 when this paper was written. SS amps have gone through many changes, many new transistors created, and many different topologies are in production.
 
#271
we likes tubes cause what the doos...though some of it is likely not only due to the tube aspect, but the compression and other things that even FET can produce.

When the guys like those at Fractal Audio focus on a rack unit that is more specificly for bass, you aint gonna need them tubes to get that sound, believe me. Im a major tube fan, but ive heard the future on my guitarists rig, and its enough to convince even purists, if they have an open mind
 
#273
okcrum said:
+1. Like I said somewhere else around here, the real model of an output (or any) transformer contains resistance, inductance, and capacitance. So what you get when you start to have an amplifier stage clip into one terminated into a speaker (load) is not as simple as most folks assume.

A complete model also shows you that when connected to a real world loudspeaker, the primary impedance of the transformer will vary with frequency as the speaker (load) impedance does, superimposed on top of the response of the transformer itself (what you see with the input and output terminated in pure resistances instead of tubes and a speaker). The output tubes won't see the same impedance at all frequencies, and so they will behave differently at different frequencies. Sound coloration, anyone? Need for negative feedback to linearize the system?
Click to expand...

Agreed, and in fact, most tube power amps used in bass gear have negative feedback. Unless somebody understands how feedback alters the transfer function, all bets are off in terms of understanding anything about power amps.

An output transformer might look like a couple of coils of wire wound on a core on the schematic, but the people here who have designed with them know just how far they are from that simple symbol.
Click to expand...
 
#274
seamonkey said:
+1

And that frequency response is the first graph of this paper
Link Removed
One thing has changed since 1981 when this paper was written. SS amps have gone through many changes, many new transistors created, and many different topologies are in production.
Click to expand...

True, but to johnk_10, JimmyM, me (wearing my other hat) and most of the TBers, it boils down to how the whole mess sounds when hooked up and played.

The sweetest sounding pure bass amp I've ever had was a homebuilt kludge, an old Bogen MO100A power amp with a homebuilt tube pre, into a homebuilt sealed cab with a couple of 12" Infinity woofers. It didn't get really loud, but it sounded soooo good. Looked ugly, like a weird science project on stage. That limited its useful life. :eek:

Then again, the amp I had before that was a Haynes, so anything would have sounded wonderful by comparison. :D

Fortunately, modern amp and speaker design has come some long way from that point, and it's possible to get just about any kind of sound now, if you play around with enough combinations of gear, whatever type of audio tech floats yer boat.
 
#276
okcrum said:
True, but to johnk_10, JimmyM, me (wearing my other hat) and most of the TBers, it boils down to how the whole mess sounds when hooked up and played.
Click to expand...
gotta tell ya, even though i'm trying to learn the technical stuff, none of it means anything if the end result isn't pleasing to the ear, so you are absolutely correct.
 
#277
JimmyM said:
maybe i phrased that wrong, then. maybe i should have said "i like to get my technical advice about tubes from someone who some respect for tubes and has played one outside of gc."
Click to expand...

That's cool.

The unfortunate situation is that the combination of tube amp playing experience and real technical knowledge and a willingness to share that knowledge on TB, is limited to a very small handful of people.
 
#279
Ive read `alot` of reviews here on TB of people that used to use an all Tube amp untill they tried a S.S preamp say something like a Sansamp RBI or RPM & they hardly ever go back to the actual Tube amp again. Just do a search about these Tube emulators & read where Tube crazy bass players swear by them.Another thing is people that use Tubes amps must have a bit cash to throw around because their not vey cheap, the amp or the tubes & repairs that come with them also the maintenence.
 
#280
Growly Lytes said:
Ive read `alot` of reviews here on TB of people that used to use an all Tube amp untill they tried a S.S preamp say something like a Sansamp RBI or RPM & they hardly ever go back to the actual Tube amp again. Just do a search about these Tube emulators & read where Tube crazy bass players swear by them.Another thing is people that use Tubes amps must have a bit cash to throw around because their not vey cheap, the amp or the tubes & repairs that come with them also the maintenence.
Click to expand...
ok, first off, reading is no substitute for experience. but i'm sure that while you're reading, you will find that just as many folks went the other way as well. i, for one. got a vt pedal...love it...sounds like ampeg to me through the pa. but it ain't an svt or a b-15 and feels nowhere near as good as the real thing, even though it sounds like it.

second, i used a tube amp back in the 80's when i was making $200 a week for a 6-night gig, sometimes even less. how was i able to do it? because the part about being a lot of maintenance with tubes just isn't true. yeah, ok, now and then a tube goes out. big deal.

however, it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves, and far be it from me to judge...or even care ;)
 

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