Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

[MAMMOTHvolume]

i'm not sure what you are saying? its not that the transformered inputs have an inferior 'tone', they sound awesome, but the transformerless ones sound bigger and better in our console.

a well designed transformer will not colour the tone at all. good ones sound better because there frequency range extends well beyond what the signal requires.

 

[seamonkey]

well, all i can say is, if you liked the sound of the beatle's recordings, you'd love it.

It can't all be attributed to "tubes".

Tape - adds odd harmonics
Measured by Jack Endino
http://www.endino.com/archive/arch2.html
"I submit to you that it is mostly this odd-harmonic distortion that we miss when we listen to a digital recording."

It's really the balance of odd and even harmonics that are musical.

I've give most to credit of the Beatle's sound to them - the music. If they were new today and recorded in new studios - it would still be great.

 

[johnk_10]

It can't all be attributed to "tubes".

ummm. duh. of course it isn't.

I've give most to credit of the Beatle's sound to them - the music. If they were new today and recorded in new studios - it would still be great.

i completely agree, but i'd also give ALOT of the credit of their sound, that still raises the bar today, to George Martin, as well as the Beatles themselves.

 

[JimmyM]

at the time, the beatles clearly had the best recorded music out there. true, without the music, the beatles wouldn't have been nearly as impressive, but the extra sonic sauce they had was definitely a nice bonus.

 

[pgk]

For me it is mostly in their response. To me, tube amps are much more touch sensitive capturing every nuance from the slightest touch to the hardest bang. Most of them seem to be alot more transparent in their tone as well. Every solid state amp that i have is a little bit "veiled" , meaning they seem to have a "layer" between your bass and what is coming out of the speakers, making tube amps feel alot punchier.

exactly what i would've said. it's the tube feel above all else. don't get me wrong, i love the rush of a big ss amp as much as the next guy. but i run low power but very stout all tube heads and i set 'em clean. it's that feel that no ss amp can ever touch. i've thought of upgrading to a bigger tube amp for some gigs, but realized all i have to do is add a second identical cabinet and i'd be set, instant volume doubler. anyway tubes all the way for me, with a hybrid hartke LH500 for a backup

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

i completely agree, but i'd also give ALOT of the credit of their sound, that still raises the bar today, to George Martin, as well as the Beatles themselves.

George Martin is a creative genius, and he was well-matched to the Beatles. I got to meet him in London at the AES convention in May.

Ironically, the EMI recording engineers who worked with the Beatles were younger ones who were "stuck" with them; the older ones with seniority preferred to work a predictable 9 to 5 schedule. The Beatles liked to to record at odd hours, mostly late at night and into the early morning.

If you're interested in the technology used in Beatles recordings, I recommend the book Recording the Beatles. It's really great.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I believe most of the beatles stuff was recorded on Siemens, Neuman, TAB and other German broadcast mic pres with 72 in the model name. Pretty much universally transformer but not all tube. A few were transistored, IIRC some were even germanium.

I actually dont like the beatles at all. Just not my style. But it's pretty much impossible to disregard them and their recordings.
Speaking of, if any of you like the first Kiss live record, thats a Yamaha PM1000. Well at least the parts that werent re-recorded.

While it is true that a transformer that is designed to have a very wide frequency response is operated within its headroom can be very transparent (and have superior common mode noise rejection), due to the exigencies of budgets and well what we like to hear, most trasnformers arent designed with DC to light bandwidth and are usually specced very close to the operating current/volts they will see.
So usually when you are leaning on that amp a tiny bit, not even running into overdrive, you are smooshing (technical term) not just the tubes, but the transformer.
I love that sound.
In mic pres as well, the very good ones can sound fast and snappy while still thickening up just a bit. EG, API 512.

 

[pedro]

I actually dont like the beatles at all. Just not my style. But it's pretty much impossible to disregard them and their recordings.

Hmm ok.

 

[edbass]

For me it is mostly in their response. To me, tube amps are much more touch sensitive capturing every nuance from the slightest touch to the hardest bang. Most of them seem to be alot more transparent in their tone as well. Every solid state amp that i have is a little bit "veiled" , meaning they seem to have a "layer" between your bass and what is coming out of the speakers, making tube amps feel alot punchier.

Even though there are many really good sounding SS amps (and i own a few), they all seem a bit synthetic and processed sounding to me.

I just think the tube amps tend to sound more lively and musical. A SS amp will reproduce your bass at crushing volume with deadly accuracy...a tube amp just sings.

Well, on the other side of the coin - I was gigging with respectable SS amp for a year or two after the loud band I was in quit playing - I left my SVT in a road case and thought "no need to lug that around". Then I thought I'd pull it out just for the hell of it one day and took it to the gig and the light came on...and ever since then I've gladly schlepped that bad boy (or a V4B for one box gigs) around. It was amazing how much more lively my bass sounded.

I think these guys pretty much sum it up. It’s no secret that transistor amps are infinitely easier from a convenience aspect, but in my experience they just can’t cop the “musical” nature of an all tube amp.

Transistor amps amplify, all tube amps can be played like an instrument themselves. Tube amps can be a hassle, but I guess it depends on your priorities; what sounds good to your ears vs. what is most convenient.

I suppose that those who actually feel that transistor amps sound best to their ears are the lucky ones, they have the best of both worlds!

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

I think these guys pretty much sum it up. It’s no secret that transistor amps are infinitely easier from a convenience aspect, but in my experience they just can’t cop the “musical” nature of an all tube amp.

Transistor amps amplify, all tube amps can be played like an instrument themselves. Tube amps can be a hassle, but I guess it depends on your priorities; what sounds good to your ears vs. what is most convenient.

I suppose that those who actually feel that transistor amps sound best to their ears are the lucky ones, they have the best of both worlds!

That's certainly the trend I've noticed on here--half the posters simply want their bass to sound louder (or at least they think they do), the other half want the amplifier to color the tone (in that all-tube manner).

 

[Jazzdogg]

IME, the thing that seems to be present in all-tube rigs is a sense of immediacy, visceral presence, dynamic responsiveness, and three dimensionality that are present even at low volume levels, and absent in most of the SS rigs I've played.

I can't explain the tubey goodness phenomenon technically, but I've found that it's abundant in my mid-sixties Fender and Ampeg rigs, and largely absent in most SS rigs - even those with a tube in their pre-amp section. Unfortunately, I've never seen a tube rig capable of providing clean SPL comparable to my SS rigs at a weight or price I'd consider reasonable.

 

[johnk_10]

IME, the thing that seems to be present in all-tube rigs is a sense of immediacy, visceral presence, dynamic responsiveness, and three dimensionality that are present even at low volume levels, and absent in most of the SS rigs I've played.

I can't explain the tubey goodness phenomenon technically, but I've found that it's abundant in my mid-sixties Fender and Ampeg rigs, and largely absent in most SS rigs - even those with a tube in their pre-amp section. Unfortunately, I've never seen a tube rig capable of providing clean SPL comparable to my SS rigs at a weight or price I'd consider reasonable.

+1. well put.

 

[levis76]

I recently had the opportunity to A/B a Mesa Titan and Mesa 400+ in a band environment. We called a practice to determine which I would keep. We played a full set with the Titan, then the same set with the 400+. After the first song with the 400+, everybody immediately noticed a huge difference. The singer described it as fuller without being louder. He said he could feel it more through his body than he could with the Titan, which he said was kind of harsh and loud.
So that's 270W set to master vol 4 vs. 1200W set to master 8, yeah I had to crank the Titan up a bit to get anywhere near the same tone.
Everyone also noticed I didn't turn around to fiddle with the amp in between songs, because I didn't need to anymore. If I need a cleaner softer note, I can ease back on my attack and it has a much more profound effect on the tone of the amp, whereas with the Titan would keep the tone consistent, thus requiring adjustments between songs.
So to summarize, I find SS amps to be very consistent in tone through their volume range and are not as sensitive to changes in my playing style.
Tubes seem to suit me and my playing style better, as I like to be able to change my tone from clean to dirty and back again with just my fingers, it feels more fluid and that comes through in the music, for me.

Your results may vary.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I recently had the opportunity to A/B a Mesa Titan and Mesa 400+ in a band environment. We called a practice to determine which I would keep. We played a full set with the Titan, then the same set with the 400+. After the first song with the 400+, everybody immediately noticed a huge difference. The singer described it as fuller without being louder. He said he could feel it more through his body than he could with the Titan, which he said was kind of harsh and loud.
So that's 270W set to master vol 4 vs. 1200W set to master 8, yeah I had to crank the Titan up a bit to get anywhere near the same tone.
Everyone also noticed I didn't turn around to fiddle with the amp in between songs, because I didn't need to anymore. If I need a cleaner softer note, I can ease back on my attack and it has a much more profound effect on the tone of the amp, whereas with the Titan would keep the tone consistent, thus requiring adjustments between songs.
So to summarize, I find SS amps to be very consistent in tone through their volume range and are not as sensitive to changes in my playing style.
Tubes seem to suit me and my playing style better, as I like to be able to change my tone from clean to dirty and back again with just my fingers, it feels more fluid and that comes through in the music, for me.

Your results may vary.

+1 Yup

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Transistor amps amplify, all tube amps can be played like an instrument themselves.

That'll come in handy at those gigs where you forget your bass.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

So usually when you are leaning on that amp a tiny bit, not even running into overdrive, you are smooshing (technical term) not just the tubes, but the transformer.

Probably not. Saturating a transformer's core generally doesn't produce euphonious results.

Good transformers, used appropriately, excel at what they're good at: providing exceptional common-mode noise rejection, converting impedances, passing signals between isolated circuits, et al. They are not tone processors, no matter how appealing that notion may be.

 

[mongo2]

In that case, you might be able to make a really great processing box by cascading a bunch of "well designed transformers."

Coitainly!

 

[tekhedd]

That push-pull output stage with the transformer changes the harmonics, but that's not as much of an issue with bass unless you're driving the amp hard enough to start to produce harmonics (power-amp stage distortion). I find I can get most of the tone I want without power stage distortion, say with modern hybrid amps or the right tube-based pedals.

A lot of the warmth of tube amps comes from passive tone stages, which really could be duplicated by just putting the right tone shaping into well-designed solid-state amps--I'm thinking of the "classic tone" setting on ampeg's solid state amps. (But those didn't really add the tube overtones despite the button that's supposed to help, imo.)

 

[okcrum]

Probably not. Saturating a transformer's core generally doesn't produce euphonious results.

Good transformers, used appropriately, excel at what they're good at: providing exceptional common-mode noise rejection, converting impedances, passing signals between isolated circuits, et al. They are not tone processors, no matter how appealing that notion may be.

The guys at Mercury Magnetics might take issue with that last statement, Bob. You're absolutely right about saturation, that's not what makes the "tube sound" for guitar players.

The output tranny does affect the load line (curve) the tubes are operating on, and thus the harmonics generated in the output stage as it's driven harder. This is considered to be more important in guitar amps, but then there's the SVT.

Of course, generating odd harmonics is often a nice way to say "going into clipping".

 

[seamonkey]

The guys at Mercury Magnetics might take issue with that last statement, Bob. You're absolutely right about saturation, that's not what makes the "tube sound" for guitar players.

The output tranny does affect the load line (curve) the tubes are operating on, and thus the harmonics generated in the output stage as it's driven harder. This is considered to be more important in guitar amps, but then there's the SVT.

Of course, generating odd harmonics is often a nice way to say "going into clipping".

What a bunch of ... from Mercury Magnetics:
"On the other hand, the presence of odd harmonics in music is generally annoying. Better-sounding amps work to minimize these odd harmonics. At Mercury we design and build transformers that enable your amp’s circuitry to emphasize even order harmonics between specific frequency ranges. Our methods intentionally showcase the virtues of electric guitar tone."

What? - do they purposely take a center tap a wind the sides differently? The whole point of symmetry, matched tubes, bias, is to achieve even symmetry which the goal is to minimize even harmonics.

I don't know what keeps the "even" versus "odd" harmonic thing alive, but most of the folklore is wrong, or gets repeated wrong.