Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[Vintagefiend]

The only time I ever saw it happen at a pro level show was The Police in Lakeland FL in 1980. The opening band was a local band called Zenith/Nadir, and those guys got the absolute worst mix I ever heard at a big time rock show. I had seen them a few weeks before at a club, and while they weren't the greatest band in the world, they weren't THAT bad. A total screwjob if I ever heard one.

The next worst was Firefall at a stadium show with Heart, Cheap Trick, Blue Oyster Cult, and UFO. UFO was the opener and they sounded great. But Firefall was next and had a really low stage volume and probably didn't get much of a soundcheck, and I expect the soundman expected more SPL's out of their stage gear because it sounded like he was geared up for UFO still. Took him half the set before the sound was even decent. I believe that wasn't so much of a screwjob as it was just ill-preparedness all around. But the Police thing was a definite screwjob, no doubt in my mind.

wow, why?? Like, I understand about giving 70/80% of the volume and holding some of the lights for the headliner...but why give an intentionally bad mix to an opener??

That doesn't make sense, especially for a band of impeccable musicians with a veritable catalog of hits, such as the Police.

 

[modulusman]

The only time I ever saw it happen at a pro level show was The Police in Lakeland FL in 1980. The opening band was a local band called Zenith/Nadir, and those guys got the absolute worst mix I ever heard at a big time rock show. I had seen them a few weeks before at a club, and while they weren't the greatest band in the world, they weren't THAT bad. A total screwjob if I ever heard one.

The next worst was Firefall at a stadium show with Heart, Cheap Trick, Blue Oyster Cult, and UFO. UFO was the opener and they sounded great. But Firefall was next and had a really low stage volume and probably didn't get much of a soundcheck, and I expect the soundman expected more SPL's out of their stage gear because it sounded like he was geared up for UFO still. Took him half the set before the sound was even decent. I believe that wasn't so much of a screwjob as it was just ill-preparedness all around. But the Police thing was a definite screwjob, no doubt in my mind.

I would imagine by 1980 the Police was touring with their own soundman. The opening band could have been mixed by their own soundman or someone with the sound company. So if they sounded like crap it wasn't because they were being sabotaged. You think someone who has been around as long as you have would know this.

 

[JimmyM]

wow, why?? Like, I understand about giving 70/80% of the volume and holding some of the lights for the headliner...but why give an intentionally bad mix to an opener??

That doesn't make sense, especially for a band of impeccable musicians with a veritable catalog of hits, such as the Police.

In 1980, the Police had only 3 albums out and Zenyatta Mondatta wasn't quite as big as it became.

 

[JimmyM]

I would imagine by 1980 the Police was touring with their own soundman. The opening band could have been mixed by their own soundman or someone with the sound company. So if they sounded like crap it wasn't because they were being sabotaged. You think someone who has been around as long as you have would know this.

Way to not read my post. I saw them in a nightclub a few weeks before this show and they sounded fine.

 

[deathsdj]

For deathsdj, and this is OT, sorry about that you all, but maybe it's still relevant in the context of big rig vs going direct ...

Do you play gigs using two Firebass heads and four BVX115 cabs? If my tally is correct that is in the neighbourhood of 450 lbs and quite some big enclosures too ... how do you transport the band's gear and how do you have room to set it up if you don't play big venues? And do your guitar player(s) go that big too?

Not trying to be a pain here, I'm just curious, it's something of a struggle with transportation (backline plus PA) as well as trying to fit our minimized gear onto smaller stages. I have a quite narrow and shallow bass rig at that but with drums, keyboards, monitors and pedalboards floor space is often at a premium.

I do two outdoor shows a year for the club I DJ at and for those I use it all. I move it in a minivan that has removable seats. Yeah it is killer heavy but I have a cart to minimize the lifting and carrying. For these shows the PA is rented so I don't have to mess with any of that. The other guys have a truck with a topper that everything else fits in. We are not trying to play in clubs these days but we are talking to some other local guys about doing our own all ages non alcoholic shows in rented venues. Right now my work schedule prohibits much gigging but I'm getting out of the club biz within the next six months (hopefully) so we are making plans.

One guitar player, he has a marshal full stack. Drummer plays a normal 5 piece. All three of us sing.

 

[modulusman]

Way to not read my post. I saw them in a nightclub a few weeks before this show and they sounded fine.

Way not to understand what I wrote. You saw the local band at a nightclub. As I mentioned maybe someone with the sound company mixed them and had never heard them before, or else their own soundman was in over his head working with a pro sound rig. That doesn't mean the headliners ruined their show on purpose unless the bass player was demanding that his amp be miced.

 

[deathsdj]

The few times I have ran through a PA I run DI from one Firebass head and Mic one cabinet on my dirty rig and let the sound guy blend them to his taste. Of course we hire the sound guy and we are buds so he does us a good job. We get what we want or we don't do the show. This is our passion not our job so we can take it or leave it.

 

[ifallalot]

I see this from a way different angle.

I used to run audio in TV. We commonly put bands on during a morning show I worked on. I had so little time to get things sounding good it was scary. Really scary.

The guys I LOVED had a DI tone through pedals, their head or whatever that I could run straight into the board and maybe shape it a bit (the high end boards had great high and low pass handles) set level and call it a day.

That sure impacted what I take on stage as a bassist. I give 'em a polished tone they can run with. We also pack a very forward producer type. She can bulldoze the most crusty sound man into submission in a New York minute.

I've been the Broadcast Engineer for a AM News Show that was more or less the same situation as you, and we had very inexperienced audio engineers. I was able to make things sound fairly decent but it was scary and I was still at the mercy of the inexperienced audio ops. We also had a setup where when we used the wireless Steadicam we had built a submix of PGM folded back through a delay and ran as a source on the audio board. This sounded decent for news mics but the degradation in sound quality made it a no-go for bands. This was a constant problem to remind the producers that we could not use Steadicam during band segments. Hopefully they've bought a new delay there.

Now I"m the Broadcast Engineer for a cable network that has a weekly taped show with bands. Here I have an embarrassment of riches, as we have 5 hours for the bands to set up and not one, but two Audio Engineers (one for submix and one for TV mix). We sound good every week.

The submix engineer prefers running DI boxes for bass but knows enough from his history as a drummer and recording bands to work with the bass player on where the bass player wants the DI box to land in his signal chain. We prefer to take direct out of the amps if possible.

One of the bands' bass players had mounted a DI box at the end of his pedalboard chain for those gigs with sound guys who aren't exactly "cooperative." I thought that was a great idea

 

[Downunderwonder]

I've been the Broadcast Engineer for a AM News Show that was more or less the same situation as you, and we had very inexperienced audio engineers. I was able to make things sound fairly decent but it was scary and I was still at the mercy of the inexperienced audio ops. We also had a setup where when we used the wireless Steadicam we had built a submix of PGM folded back through a delay and ran as a source on the audio board. This sounded decent for news mics but the degradation in sound quality made it a no-go for bands. This was a constant problem to remind the producers that we could not use Steadicam during band segments. Hopefully they've bought a new delay there.

Now I"m the Broadcast Engineer for a cable network that has a weekly taped show with bands. Here I have an embarrassment of riches, as we have 5 hours for the bands to set up and not one, but two Audio Engineers (one for submix and one for TV mix). We sound good every week.

The submix engineer prefers running DI boxes for bass but knows enough from his history as a drummer and recording bands to work with the bass player on where the bass player wants the DI box to land in his signal chain. We prefer to take direct out of the amps if possible.

One of the bands' bass players had mounted a DI box at the end of his pedalboard chain for those gigs with sound guys who aren't exactly "cooperative." I thought that was a great idea

What is your reasoning for preferring anything but a mic on a cab?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I think you'd be suprised how often it happens in certain places.

At that level, I doubt it happens much. A few levels below that - it can be a different story.

These aren't good gigs, they probably aren't that hard to get, and yes - some of them intentionally do bad work.

Man I've been paying my bills doing this **** on both sides of the lights for over 30 years and I'm talking clubs, soft seat theatres and sports arenas. If it happens at the crappy little bar gigs I'd have to guess you're talking about then maybe you've run into the few idiots on the planet who didn't get the memo that intentionally doing shyte mixes is the key to a short career. What I really I suspect is going on most of the time is you're mistaking a combination of bad systems, incompetent soundmen and openers getting gear held back for the soundman intentionally boning the mix. Soundmen just don't do this as a regular modus operandi for reasons I've already sited.

 

[Pako]

But I will say it's still a DI world for bassists, and doggone right you need to have your sound together before it hits your amp, and it's a damn shame, too. Who decided that bass players shouldn't have a voice in how they're sent to the PA?

+1,000

 

[aborgman]

Man I've been paying my bills doing this **** on both sides of the lights for over 30 years and I'm talking clubs, soft seat theatres and sports arenas. If it happens at the crappy little bar gigs I'd have to guess you're talking about then maybe you've run into the few idiots on the planet who didn't get the memo that intentionally doing shyte mixes is the key to a short career.

I think the number is a whole lot more than a "few".

You're dealing in a professional realm, I'm talking about guys who learned to run sound on the job because they're buddies with the venue manager.

What I really I suspect is going on most of the time is you're mistaking a combination of bad systems, incompetent soundmen and openers getting gear held back for the soundman intentionally boning the mix. Soundmen just don't do this as a regular modus operandi for reasons I've already sited.

What I suspect is you don't realize for every professional soundman working a professional level gig, there are 10 guys who are the venue managers brother law who are pulling in $25 a band to run sound in some crappy little club.

It generally DOESN'T happen in professional places, with professional employees, hiring professional bands... problem is, that is a tiny percentage of the total. It's also a large part of why I quit playing the "5 bands, one night, everyone plays 45 minutes" originals gigs.

 

[punkjazzben]

I know a guy who has been doing sound for decades. Has seen it all, done it all, and knows his stuff. He is also a bass player and has a 30 pound 70s P Bass that I want. But he is going deaf, and his mixes are always too loud for the room and crowd, and too bassy.

These things happen. Sound guys aren't perfect, and may I remind you all that threads bagging your sound guy have been done to death.

Buy the rig you want, but have good preamp/DI for when your rig is nothing but a stage prop/monitor. Or mic it up. Just be ready; it's about as simple as that.

 

[lfmn16]

What I suspect is you don't realize for every professional soundman working a professional level gig, there are 10 guys who are the venue managers brother law who are pulling in $25 a band to run sound in some crappy little club.

+1

I've worked at small places where the main criteria for hiring a soundman is, "will he work for liquor and/or weed."

 

[Dan Knowlton]

when a sound guy runs me direct it basically turns my expensive Orange cabinets into overpriced stage monitors.

Doesn't matter, I'm worth it for my ears alone!

Face it, most sound guys will spend an hour getting the drums right and 10 seconds with the bass.

Dan K.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Face it, most sound guys will spend an hour getting the drums right and 10 seconds with the bass.

Dan K.

That has very much been my experience, primarily; the sound droid just looks to see if the meter twitches on the bass channel and all is good to go.................. :scowl:

 

[JimmyM]

I'm actually cool with that Bass shouldn't take 10 minutes. Just don't cut me off at the nuts.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

Keep in mind...99% of the audience doesn't even know the difference between a guitar and a bass, let alone whether or not there's a mic on the bass player's rig or he's running direct.

 

[JimmyM]

Keep in mind...99% of the audience doesn't even know the difference between a guitar and a bass, let alone whether or not there's a mic on the bass player's rig or he's running direct.

You've taken polls?

Why buy a bass? Why practice? Heck, why even bother to show up if that's how you feel about it? You're just wasting space up there that could be used for another guitar player.

Underestimating their audiences is the number one biggest mistake that musicians make. I firmly believe that attitude is what keeps certain musicians from getting anywhere with their music. Audiences are way more savvy than many musicians want to give them credit. Some might not know the difference, but many do. And by now, everyone's heard music through a nice system and they can easily tell the difference between music played on a $50 boombox vs. a $5000 stereo. At my shows, I have many people either compliment or complain about the mix. And you know what? They're almost always right.

Sorry, but I find that attitude arrogant and self-defeating, and crappy bars that pay musicians nothing are absolutely full of musicians who feel that way, and they will never get past the level they're at because of it. It's not the audience's job to take your sound seriously...it's yours.

 

[FretNoMore]

I don't see why an audience member can have or should have a clue about how the bass is amplified. How it sounds on the other hand, everyone can - and maybe should, especially if they are paying - have an opinon on that.