Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[Jeff Bonny]

Wow, this is a really weird, dysfunctional conversation.
It certainly doesn't reflect what I've observed as a working bass player and stage lighting guy of some 30+ years. One thought is that most of what I know about sound reinforcement and getting a bass sound to slot into a live FOH mix I've learned from soundmen......hmmm.

Another thought is that the DI vs mic debate is incredibly stupid. They're both tools that are proven to work and the only issues you'll see are with shyte soundmen (not as common as some would have you believe....or if they are you're playing a lot of dives) or uneducated players not showing up with the gear required to meet their own FOH expectations. If you need something better than a tape wrapped Whirlwind DI you need to bring it. Sure everyone has a bad soundman story or three but if it's more than 1 in 10 you work with sorry but you play ****holes and have a skewed perception.

Ok, here's a slight detour question:
How realistic is it to expect a soundman you've never worked with to nail "your sound" right off the top be it with a mic or a DI? How do you totally gel with a drummer you've never worked with? If you're both pros you make it work, right? Most soundmen cut a lot of musicians more slack than they'll ever know....as well they should it's always about the music first.

 

[BurningSkies]

Wow, this is a really weird, dysfunctional conversation.
It certainly doesn't reflect what I've observed as a working bass player and stage lighting guy of some 30+ years. One thought is that most of what I know about sound reinforcement and getting a bass sound to slot into a live FOH mix I've learned from soundmen......hmmm.

Another thought is that the DI vs mic debate is incredibly stupid. They're both tools that are proven to work and the only issues you'll see are with shyte soundmen (not as common as some would have you believe....or if they are you're playing a lot of dives) or uneducated players not showing up with the gear required to meet their own FOH expectations. If you need something better than a tape wrapped Whirlwind DI you need to bring it. Sure everyone has a bad soundman story or three but if it's more than 1 in 10 you work with sorry but you play ****holes and have a skewed perception.

Ok, here's a slight detour question:
How realistic is it to expect a soundman you've never worked with to nail "your sound" right off the top be it with a mic or a DI? How do you totally gel with a drummer you've never worked with? If you're both pros you make it work, right? Most soundmen cut a lot of musicians more slack than they'll ever know....as well they should it's always about the music first.

I don't think its a matter of them 'nailing' the sound as much as bothering to give it more than a passive half hearted un-try. Which sort of leads me back to the 'better than a tape wrapped Whirlwind DI'.

Its not OK for me to show up with gear in that condition, why is it ok for that to be an acceptable solution for house sound. We've all seen these ratty past-date DI's and sometimes 58's or whatever that look like they've been run over with a truck. Or have set up and found that the snake has dead channels on it and they have to hunt for a decent working line. Its not OK. I carry a gig back with extra mics and cables for just this reason. Jimmy keeps talking about that old milk crate, but for decades I've SEEN that milk crate. Or the board with a bunch of non-functional channels, or the power amps with 'weak sides' or all the other garbage.

Its the gear equivalent of a club that expects you to show up promptly for 7pm load in and then you wait until 8 for a bar tender to show up and 9 for sound to show up.

 

[two fingers]

By the way Jimmy I opened for and ran monitors for Rick back in the late 80s (early 90s maybe?) in a small club in VA. The band was just him and a bass player and their two girlfriends on keys and drums (IIRC). Anyway the bass player was also a sound engineer and was pretty much telling our guy what he wanted. And he and Rick argued like crazy during sound check over his stage volume. He would say "D********* Ricky this isn't a stadium! Its a freakin dive bar in the woods! Turn that s*** down!" But they seemed like old friends so he got away with it. So I guess even rock stars get "their sound" rammed up their but ts every now and then. But of course as soon as their set start Rick jacked it right back up....... deaf old bastard.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I don't think its a matter of them 'nailing' the sound as much as bothering to give it more than a passive half hearted un-try. Which sort of leads me back to the 'better than a tape wrapped Whirlwind DI'.

Its not OK for me to show up with gear in that condition, why is it ok for that to be an acceptable solution for house sound. We've all seen these ratty past-date DI's and sometimes 58's or whatever that look like they've been run over with a truck. Or have set up and found that the snake has dead channels on it and they have to hunt for a decent working line. Its not OK. I carry a gig back with extra mics and cables for just this reason. Jimmy keeps talking about that old milk crate, but for decades I've SEEN that milk crate. Or the board with a bunch of non-functional channels, or the power amps with 'weak sides' or all the other garbage.

Its the gear equivalent of a club that expects you to show up promptly for 7pm load in and then you wait until 8 for a bar tender to show up and 9 for sound to show up.

So you play a lot of ****holes then?

 

[BurningSkies]

So you play a lot of ****holes then?

I've played everything from small clubs and coffee houses through theaters, festivals and big name clubs down the east coast. I've played parole parties at dive bars and black tie private gigs. If its a fun gig, I'll take it even if its a pit. Some of my favorite times have been gigs with 200 people in a packed basement.

When it comes to gigs and getting through them, I have survival instinct. I'm the guy with extra power strips, extra guitar cables, 9v batteries. I have the flask when someone doesn't have cash for the bar. I'm the first to show up at the door (usually before load in time) and the last band member to leave. I carry sets of spare guitar strings and picks even though I'm not a guitarist (although I also sometimes provide guitars, amps and effects if needed).

 

[JimmyM]

By the way Jimmy I opened for and ran monitors for Rick back in the late 80s (early 90s maybe?) in a small club in VA. The band was just him and a bass player and their two girlfriends on keys and drums (IIRC). Anyway the bass player was also a sound engineer and was pretty much telling our guy what he wanted. And he and Rick argued like crazy during sound check over his stage volume. He would say "D********* Ricky this isn't a stadium! Its a freakin dive bar in the woods! Turn that s*** down!" But they seemed like old friends so he got away with it. So I guess even rock stars get "their sound" rammed up their but ts every now and then. But of course as soon as their set start Rick jacked it right back up....... deaf old bastard.

BWHAHAHAHA! I wonder if that was Kevin Rian...never met him but he's from my area.

 

[two fingers]

BWHAHAHAHA! I wonder if that was Kevin Rian...never met him but he's from my area.

The details are sketchy (because so was I back then). I was 18 or 19 playing bass in a cover band. We were the opener and they were using our PA. Our sound guy conned me into running monitors for them (mainly because nobody else could show up early enough to sound check the headliner). I was all stoked about the show. At the end of the night I felt as though the curtain had been pulled back at Oz. But they were overall nice guys (and ladies).

 

[modulusman]

The details are sketchy (because so was I back then). I was 18 or 19 playing bass in a cover band. We were the opener and they were using our PA. Our sound guy conned me into running monitors for them (mainly because nobody else could show up early enough to sound check the headliner). I was all stoked about the show. At the end of the night I felt as though the curtain had been pulled back at Oz. But they were overall nice guys (and ladies).

I ran sound for Rick Derringer once also back in the 90s. The band was a 3 piece and the bass player had played with Pat Travers. It was a last minute deal, the bar was to supply the PA rig and they thought a powered mixer and 2 speakers and no monitors was enough. Anyway I got a call a few hours before show time and was able to get my PA to the bar and up and running a few minutes before show time.

 

[Marcus Willett]

...the sound guy will win every time. Because while you are on stage playing, he can make you sound like crap no matter what and there isn't a THING you can do about it.

1) the soundman and the band are not co-equal branches of entertainment. Yeah, I said it. NO ONE will want a refund if the soundman cancels. EVERYONE will if the band does. Sorry, it is NOT an equailavent relationship. What he wants does not matter anywhere near as much as what the artist does. That's just a fact. Try booking a gig and subbing the soundman at the last minute and see the financial impact. It's zero.

Now this doesnt give anyone carte blanche to be an ass. When I am a customer at a restaurant, the server is in a subordinate role as well (yes, I meant to use that word). That doesn't mean I have the right to be an ass about it, but if I want something IT IS YOUR JOB to make it happen. If it is impossible, or you need more time, that's fine. But that s your job to work with what you have. Do your job.

I am often told I must make musical sense out of a crappy part that makes no sense at all. Guess what? Same rule. If its impossible or whatever, ok but otherwise, make it happen.

2) that is the lamest damn attitude I have ever encountered. Don't upset the soundman, because...he can hurt you? Again, refer to point #1. Also on a practical level, he is BY FAR the easiest to replace, (in terms of actual people producing a product) especially at the last minute. He/she is the LAST person to have any attitude about anything.

So, I guess we REALLY better handle the singer with kid gloves, because....well, he could sing bad if you upset him. Lame, lame lame.

 

[JimmyM]

I ran sound for Rick Derringer once also back in the 90s. The band was a 3 piece and the bass player had played with Pat Travers. It was a last minute deal, the bar was to supply the PA rig and they thought a powered mixer and 2 speakers and no monitors was enough. Anyway I got a call a few hours before show time and was able to get my PA to the bar and up and running a few minutes before show time.

Ya, that was Kevin Rian.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by squeezer:
A genuine question for people who use cabinet mics -- do you use a cats cradle (vibration isolating) mount for the mic, like shown in the photo of cabinet measurements?

Not even once in my life, and I've never once had this problem.

Stages here are solid, if I come across bouncing stage syndrome it'll have to bounce my cab with it once I organise my mic cab mount.

Temporary staging hasn't given me problems so far, I would guess that would be more vibration prone than our native hardwood floors.

 

[JimmyM]

I always used a Z-Bar with my own mic, and only used stands when on the road because I didn't carry my mic with me through airports. But never once had a problem either, and used a lot of temporary staging as well.

 

[two fingers]

1) the soundman and the band are not co-equal branches of entertainment. NO ONE will want a refund if the soundman cancels. EVERYONE will if the band does. Sorry, it is NOT an equailavent relationship. What he wants does not matter anywhere near as much as what the artist does. That's just a fact. Try booking a gig and subbing the soundman at the last minute and see the financial impact. It's zero.

You must not have read far enough. I clearly stated that I am NOT that guy, but that I had heard stories.

However, let me toss something out to you. I have run lots of HOUSE systems. In those cases, I work for the CLUB OWNER, not the band/artist. So, if the club owner comes up to me and says "Too boomy. Bring it back a little." I do it. Period. If the band comes up to me and says "Hey dude. We're like totally the artist and junk. Crank it up, man!" I say, "Sorry big guy. The owner has set a limit and we're at it. Run along now and go play your guitar." (Usually nicer than that, but you get the picture.... as do they.)


So, not all things are true all the time. Sometimes the "artist" is just a hired hand and THEY can be replaced with a simple phone call only moments before show time... ESPECIALLY in the world of originals bands, where guys are lined up ITCHING to get on stage. (I have done it three times before.) Also, I have relationships with the club owners in my area. I assure you that unless you are famous, you would go before I would. Some band nobody ever heard of that draws a whopping dozen or so people (or even fifty) will not negate years of friendship and professional courtesy. At any time I can pick up the phone and have a professional quality band standing in your spot with about an hour's notice.

Again, all that being said, please read a little further before you lecture me. I get along with everyone. But I SYMPATHIZE with those sound guys who can be harder to get along with. We deal with a lot of egos (guys like you it seems). Once again, I am simply encouraging people to lose the chip. It serves no purpose. In the big scheme of things, nobody cares that I have LOTS of money and years of experience invested in sound. And frankly nobody cares that you have a couple grand and years of experience invested in "your tone". It's only rock n roll. Everybody needs to lighten up. K? Thanks. Glad we had this talk. I feel better. You?

 

[modulusman]

I've played everything from small clubs and coffee houses through theaters, festivals and big name clubs down the east coast. I've played parole parties at dive bars and black tie private gigs. If its a fun gig, I'll take it even if its a pit. Some of my favorite times have been gigs with 200 people in a packed basement.

When it comes to gigs and getting through them, I have survival instinct. I'm the guy with extra power strips, extra guitar cables, 9v batteries. I have the flask when someone doesn't have cash for the bar. I'm the first to show up at the door (usually before load in time) and the last band member to leave. I carry sets of spare guitar strings and picks even though I'm not a guitarist (although I also sometimes provide guitars, amps and effects if needed).

Maybe you should start bringing a PA.

 

[Marcus Willett]

You must not have read far enough. I clearly stated that I am NOT that guy....please read a little further before you lecture me. I get along with everyone....

Fair enough, upon re-reading I may have jumped the gun. My bad. However, I completely stand by my comments. It's not ego, it's just reality.

 

[Marcus Willett]

It's only rock n roll

...but I like it....

 

[two fingers]

I've played everything from small clubs and coffee houses through theaters, festivals and big name clubs down the east coast. I've played parole parties at dive bars and black tie private gigs. If its a fun gig, I'll take it even if its a pit. Some of my favorite times have been gigs with 200 people in a packed basement.

When it comes to gigs and getting through them, I have survival instinct. I'm the guy with extra power strips, extra guitar cables, 9v batteries. I have the flask when someone doesn't have cash for the bar. I'm the first to show up at the door (usually before load in time) and the last band member to leave. I carry sets of spare guitar strings and picks even though I'm not a guitarist (although I also sometimes provide guitars, amps and effects if needed).

Wait a minute. Are you ME?

Or are you just the voice in my head?

Yep. I'm that guy too. My gear box is known far and wide as "The Box Of Doom". All who open it bow in amazement. It is an aluminum case that's about 18"X18"X15" (just guessing... maybe a little bigger). When fully loaded it weighs about 65 pounds. It houses mostly stuff that I hope I don't need.... and stuff that I'm pretty sure somebody else will at some point every night. I have and active and passive DI, and even a spare head in there. Three gauges of guitar strings (electric and acoustic), picks, cables and adapters by the dozen, tools, probably 15 things to write with from pencils to Sharpie markers, batteries (and nothing I have uses them), etc.

 

[BurningSkies]

I would suggest that there are some soundmen who need to lose their 'chips'.

Many of the guys I work with are great, others you can TELL seconds in are going to be a problem...before you've even finished setting up your rig.

Sometimes they do a great job of sinking themselves. One guy opined while we play "damnit I hate that stupid instrument..." loudly when our lead singer started playing her melodica (only one of THREE melodica playing reggae bands on stage that night). My lovely wife was next to the board when he said it, and of course I heard it right off. So, I mentioned it in passing to the booking person for the theater and also to the owner of the venue. Both of who said they had heard similar from him, and apologize by way of saying 'he's really a metal guy, you can tell'. He's not there anymore when we play there.

 

[BurningSkies]

Wait a minute. Are you ME?

Or are you just the voice in my head?

Yep. I'm that guy too. My gear box is known far and wide as "The Box Of Doom". All who open it bow in amazement. It is an aluminum case that's about 18"X18"X15" (just guessing... maybe a little bigger). When fully loaded it weighs about 65 pounds. It houses mostly stuff that I hope I don't need.... and stuff that I'm pretty sure somebody else will at some point every night. I have and active and passive DI, and even a spare head in there. Three gauges of guitar strings (electric and acoustic), picks, cables and adapters by the dozen, tools, probably 15 things to write with from pencils to Sharpie markers, batteries (and nothing I have uses them), etc.

Sharpies in black plus a few extra colors. Also paper for set lists. I carry whole sets of strings but also extra singles in 10,11,13,16. I carry multiple backup Space Echo tapes. I carry 12AX7s (although my amp doesn't use them) and 6SL7's and 12AU7's and 6L6's. Electrical tape, blue tape. My bass amp can double as front end or monitor amp or both, or half of it for keys amp in a real pinch and I can use a backup for me. I usually carry only 57's and 58's because they'll always do in a pinch. I have some extra drum sticks in the car too. I carry an integrated PA 'head' as a spare so I can use it as an ad-hock mixer in a pinch for either monitors or mains.

I don't carry extra DI's because I have a great one of my own and I've divested of all others. If needed I could use my backup micro as a DI for keys or whatever.

 

[OOZMAN]

I have thought long and hard about this problem (Thread title), which is why I run two digital amp Sims.

This is how I do it; bass runs into a line 6 pod HD500 floorboard, this is where the DI comes out and I always ask for a DI and no mic. I have my own PA at home and I have tweaked the tone based on just the pod into the PA. The same signal that goes to the DI then goes to my rack setup, which starts with a behringer bass v-amp pro. This is here solely to make the sound coming out of my 8x10 the same as the DI tone. Because bass speakers are darker than PA speakers, there is a lot of treble boost happening here. Some sound guys want to go DI out of the v-amp, I promptly redirect them to the HD500. After my v-amp there is a dbx graphic eq, to further poke the tone towards the di tone. Finally it goes through the Crown and into the fridge.

This way it doesn't matter whether I get mic'd or DI'd, although I prefer DI.