Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[BurningSkies]

Maybe you should start bringing a PA.

Sometimes I do.

Sometimes even when we know there will be one, I bring parts of one, just in case.

 

[wcriley]

For the record:
I've earned at least some on my income from live music for more years than you've been alive.

The man I replaced at my current job had been doing this job more years that I've been alive. I spend at least a little time everyday fixing stupid mistakes he made. I wish experienced meant "refined" as often as it meant "stubbornly resistant to change".

I posted that in response to someone who'd questioned my experience.
And now, in response to your implication that I might be resistant to change:
My bass amp is class D, as is half of my PA amp rack.
Most of the EQ and compression, and all of the time based effects in my PA racks are digital. I'd be using a digital board if I could justify the expense at this point in my life.
My primary bass speaker cabinets are based on modern drivers and design criteria.

Oh...and as I mentioned in an earlier post: I send a (post EQ)DI to the board if I'm not "carrying the room" with my stage rig.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Its the gear equivalent of a club that expects you to show up promptly for 7pm load in and then you wait until 8 for a bar tender to show up and 9 for sound to show up.

Oh geez, don't get me started on the bars that use the stage as makeshift storage during the week, and you show up to find that there are bunch of unused tables and chairs stacked up there.

 

[georgestrings]

I think you may be mistaken on two accounts. First, we've all encountered good and bad sound guys, but more often than not, we've encountered the bad variety that don't care, and think a bass is a bass is a bass, a guitar is a guitar is a guitar, drum is a drum is a drum, etc. So many don't go into it with a chip on their shoulder, they go in with expectations, and most are extremely personal expectations. They've worked hard to develop a signature sound that they want to hear, that is "their sound" and to have someone ignore that and do whatever they want to do is a fairly hefty slap in the face.

And the second place I think you're mistaken is, most of us have a say in who gets rehired for sound. So, while the sound guy might get the last word for the night, the last word in the conversation comes from the band and the bass player. And believe me, I've ended my fair share of working relationships with sound men based on their thought process that every band should sound like THEY want them to sound, and not like the band wants to sound.

Well said - the last paragraph was exactly what I was going to post...


- georgestrings

 

[squeezer]

1) the soundman and the band are not co-equal branches of entertainment. Yeah, I said it. NO ONE will want a refund if the soundman cancels. EVERYONE will if the band does. Sorry, it is NOT an equailavent relationship. What he wants does not matter anywhere near as much as what the artist does. That's just a fact. Try booking a gig and subbing the soundman at the last minute and see the financial impact. It's zero.

Now this doesnt give anyone carte blanche to be an ass. When I am a customer at a restaurant, the server is in a subordinate role as well (yes, I meant to use that word). That doesn't mean I have the right to be an ass about it, but if I want something IT IS YOUR JOB to make it happen. If it is impossible, or you need more time, that's fine. But that s your job to work with what you have. Do your job.

I am often told I must make musical sense out of a crappy part that makes no sense at all. Guess what? Same rule. If its impossible or whatever, ok but otherwise, make it happen.

2) that is the lamest damn attitude I have ever encountered. Don't upset the soundman, because...he can hurt you? Again, refer to point #1. Also on a practical level, he is BY FAR the easiest to replace, (in terms of actual people producing a product) especially at the last minute. He/she is the LAST person to have any attitude about anything.

So, I guess we REALLY better handle the singer with kid gloves, because....well, he could sing bad if you upset him. Lame, lame lame.

I agree that soundmen are (usually) easier to replace than band members -- though maybe not on the night with an hour's notice when you realise they're no good.

But assuming the band is competent and the audience wants to hear them not yak, the sound out front is entirely dependent on the guy behind the desk, and he's got much more potential to screw it up than any band member -- maybe through incompetence, maybe because he's going deaf, or maybe he's just mad at the band for telling him "you're a fu**ing idiot, get the sound sorted out" and so can't be bothered to even try.

Even the best soundman can't polish a turd, but a bad one can sure turn a good band into one as far as the paying audience are concerned.

I don't understand this "soundman vs. musician" attitude; if you want a good gig, both have to do their job well, and seeing the other guy's point of view and *communicating* can only help, as can anything the soundman can do to make the musician's lives easier and vice versa.

Our regular sound guy was treated (and paid) as "one of the band"; he knew what we wanted to sound like on each number, kept checking that everyone was happy, and the only times we got complaints about FOH sound (not every time, obviously) was when he couldn't make it and we had to find a substitute -- though as a ten-piece band playing multiple instruments each with the lead passing between them we were never exactly an easy job...

Musicians treating the soundguy as a dumb disposable drone or soundguys treating the musicians as idiots who don't know how PA works or know how they want to sound are both recipes for disaster -- it's the same "I'm always right, it's always the other guy's fault" attitude that infects so many fields today :-(

 

[Geri O]

Musicians treating the soundguy as a dumb disposable drone or soundguys treating the musicians as idiots who don't know how PA works or know how they want to sound are both recipes for disaster -- it's the same "I'm always right, it's always the other guy's fault" attitude that infects so many fields today :-(

By far, the most intelligent statement in this entire thread. The mods really should lock it after that one.

Geri O

 

[Pako]

Since the restaurant industry was used as an example, let's roll with it.

A cook is like a sound man. Don't piss off the cook, he might spit (or worse) in your food.

Just sayin.

 

[squeezer]

The difference being you will probably never know if the cook spit in your food. With a sound guy I think it's pretty obvious.

Not if you're standing in front of a loud on-stage rig, you've got *no* idea what's going on out front during the gig as opposed to when (if) you walked out front at soundcheck...

 

[Pako]

The difference being you will probably never know if the cook spit in your food. With a sound guy I think it's pretty obvious.

Your monitor mix could be perfect but you would never know FOH has been pissed on until it was too late, and the only thing the audience knows as far as they're concerned is that you suck, while the whole time you are basking in what you think is tonal bliss.

 

[Pako]

True, but as I mentioned above there are ways to alleviate that particular problem. Wireless. Always have someone out front. Have your own soundguy. Etc. Etc.

Sometimes, I agree. Everyone's experience in how often that can happen will vary.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

The total flipside of all this is the fact that some players play so damn loud that the FOH guy takes them out of the mix completely. This irritates them...a lot.

 

[Marcus Willett]

...I don't understand this "soundman vs. musician" attitude; if you want a good gig, both have to do their job well, and seeing the other guy's point of view and *communicating* can only help, as can anything the soundman can do to make the musician's lives easier and vice versa.

I don't advocate, nor precipitate an adversarial attitude. I do advocate standing up for one's self, and believe the bassists tone goals are as important as anyone else's.

....A cook is like a sound man. Don't piss off the cook, he might spit (or worse) in your food.

Sorry, THIS is the core problem. That's bul***it. I do not and will not tolerate this attitude (from anyone, this isnt limited to soundmen) of don't make me mad or...". Or what? You won't do your damn JOB because someone made you mad? That's an unprofessional ignorant childish attitude that I have NO obligation to respect and I will expend any and all effort to crush. Anyone with that attitude will not and should not make it long in this business, and I will gladly aid their ouster. Good riddance.

 

[bigchiefbc]

I don't advocate, nor precipitate an adversarial attitude. I do advocate standing up for one's self, and believe the bassists tone goals are as important as anyone else's.

I think that this point is really what this thread is about. Some bassists feel marginalized by soundmen, and I can relate, as I've had that experience before as well.

I run a pedalboard of effects, as well as an overdriven amp. Apparently those two things make me into an ego-driven diva, even though they would be expected and normal and tolerated if I had 6 skinny strings instead of 4 fat ones. Instead of a soundman willing to work with me, I get "just plug in your bass to this DI and stop making my job difficult"

I absolutely love it when we run our own sound. I can set it up how I like it and we just mix from the stage. We've got a pretty decent PA for a bar-and-function-hall cover band, and we've always got a couple friends that can whisper to us what needs to be adjusted between songs.

 

[godofthunder59]

My DI is a Shure SM 57.

 

[FretNoMore]

I really can't imagine a soundman would suggest plugging the bass directly into a DI if he sees I use a pedal board, it has anyway never happened to me ...

I have also several times suggested we move the DI line from the house amp or DI to my pedalboard, or use the DI in my amp rather than the house DI, and I have never gotten a refusal or heard that there was any problem with dialing in a workable sound.

You have to wonder how often these problems really happen, maybe I'm lucky or maybe I approach sound guys differently, but I wonder if not some of these stories are hyperbole much in the same way "guitards" are almost universally pictured as bad guys here on TB. It smells a bit like us against them really.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I really can't imagine a soundman would suggest plugging the bass directly into a DI if he sees I use a pedal board, it has anyway never happened to me ...maybe I'm lucky or maybe I approach sound guys differently....

Thats certainly possible, but I would guess the real answer is that it's just a numbers game. If you do a LOT of gigs/shows (I've averaged 500/year for the last 15 years) then it stands to reason you're going to run into a lot of different soundmen and encounter a lot of different attitudes. I've had the pleasure to work with some great ones who taught me a lot. I've also worked with hacks that only had the job because they were willing to work for the crap pay the venue offered. Just like musicians, they run the gamut.

 

[Pako]

Sorry, THIS is the core problem. That's bul***it. I do not and will not tolerate this attitude (from anyone, this isnt limited to soundmen) of don't make me mad or...". Or what? You won't do your damn JOB because someone made you mad? That's an unprofessional ignorant childish attitude that I have NO obligation to respect and I will expend any and all effort to crush. Anyone with that attitude will not and should not make it long in this business, and I will gladly aid their ouster. Good riddance.

I completely agree and couldn't feel more passionately about either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I won't get into my opinion of the general work ethics of most, but will say once the gig is over, it's too late to find out from your wife or friends that you just got hosed by someone that should not be allowed behind a board.

I've been on both sides of the mains plenty and have ALWAYS tried to cater to the bands wishes as best as possible. It is , after all, their set not mine. They now their sound way better than I do and with ALL of that, I still will have my own preferences for the mix because it is my job at the board to make it sound as good as it can.

Some sound guys just nail and are worth their weight in gold making the whole experience that much sweeter.

 

[J.Wolf]

without reading through 20 pages, in response to the OP, this thread should be re-titled "why go through the trouble of having a wonderful sounding bass and rig, if you're not going to invest in a great sounding DI?"

 

[JimmyM]

I really can't imagine a soundman would suggest plugging the bass directly into a DI if he sees I use a pedal board, it has anyway never happened to me ...

Happened to me in November. He backed off it once he saw I had a REDDI, though.

 

[Clouz]

i might have to get one of these.