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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

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#681
Downunderwonder said:
I think you mean high pass at 35hz, which is quite a bit lower than most PA are highpassed, and far from soundmen not knowing what you're up to, your rig is probably doing all the low end by itself!
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You are correct. That's what you get for typing quickly and posting. :)

In small or medium rooms my rig often sounds better than what the PAs and and boards can produce. It also doesn't suffer from having multiple sound sources in the room.
 
#682
Marcus Willett said:
Some good points, but a couple observations.

1) every one of your points could and do apply to a mic'ed guitar amp as well. And yet, guitarists do not meet NEARLY the resistance to micing that bass players do. Soundmen are often forced to deal with it, do so, and the good ones make it work (miraculously, I guess...) I submit this difference is not based on physics, but the general sentiment that bass tone isn't worth the extra effort.

2) divas. Yep, there are a lot of them out there. But there is no reason to believe (as you seem to imply) that is any more common from the musican end than the soundman end. Again, no guitarist is ever accused of being a diva if he says he needs his cab mic'ed because it's an integral part of his tone. That is accepted. A bassist does the exact same thing and is ignorant and a diva....
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1) Agreed. But the conversation here is about bass players. I didn't feel the need to go into any negotiations with other musicians in the context of bass rig discussions. While we're on the subject, keyboard players are by far worse than any guitar or bass player (in my experience). Almost all of them are deaf and insist on stage volumes that make the FOH pretty much useless to begin with. So, I have not let guitar players off the hook. This just isn't a discussion about them. If you would like to talk about guitar players, I guess we could swing over to Misc. or something and start a thread over there.

2) I never said that micing was the problem. Yes, that was the question in the OP. However, even if you mic a tone that is really hard to get into a mix, it is still hard to get into a mix. In my experience, TONE is the problem, not where that tone is coming from. DI, mic, line out from an amp, it doesn't matter. So, part of the problem is that a lot of bass players simply think that micing "their tone" will SOLVE everything. It won't. If your tone is a hot mess, and/or it is EQed in a way that makes it really hard to jam into a mix, where it comes from doesn't matter.

(And, yes, the same thing goes for guitar players. I have actually said to a band before "I'm really not sure what that guy is doing here (point to the bass player). You guys (point to the guitar players) are doing his job." I wad panties in an equal opportunity fashion.) ;)
 
#683
two fingers said:
Ha! We've had this argument before Jim. And my mind hasn't changed at all. There are a couple things that SOME bass players do NOT get.

1) Physics. "Your sound" is not going to produce the same way through massive 2-18 subs, 2-15 mids, and massive horns the same way it comes out of a sealed 8-10. So it will not even CLOSELY resemble what is coming out of your amp, EVEN IF you mic it.

2) Context. "Your sound" may sound like the left hand of God on a 20 foot Steinway (with just the right amount of angelic fuzz) in your bedroom, your practice room, even on your album. But "your sound" may just sound like a 5 gallon bucket of steaming crap in the mix, through the PA, in a club that has all the acoustics of a small gym.

3) Business. MY REPUTATION is ALSO on the line when I run sound for you. And many club owners, band members, and even music fans think that we are magicians. If something sounds horrible, WHO are they going to look at with that annoying "What the ****" look on their faces? Not the guy with the 15 distortion pedals running into the 15 gigawatt amp and 7 8-10 cabs. They are going to look at ME! So, I DO have somewhat of an obligation to protect MY company, MY reputation, and MY mix. Especially if I am running sound for more than one band, I have potential customers standing around the room all night. And, again, they are doing long division in their heads. If something sounds "wrong" they think I suck...... simple as that. But, I can't polish a turd. Crap in = crap out. And if I can help it, crap out is not an option.

So, sure, some sound guys have not learned anything new since 1983, and have bad attitudes as well. But it is the HEIGHT of overgrown 4 year old whiney wussy EGO TRIPPING DIVA-hood for ANY musician to simply say "I don't care WHAT you think. This is MY SOUND. YOU make it work."

So, your comments will have lots of fans here in the bass universe. But in context, they aren't very useful at all. All that being said, I understand you have tons of experience and talent. And I am sure you are also smart. But I also (based on several threads) think you are going through a bit of a chip on your shoulder stage over having "played it safe" and pretty much "did what you were told to get work" for most of your career. I get it. You are encouraging young players do "do your own thing" and "don't let anyone tell you any different". There is some wisdom in that as well.

But, there HAS to be some middle ground between the direction your knee jerks and the direction mine does. :D
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Garbage in garbage out, sure, but don't assume anyone's mic tone is garbage until the PA is tuned and you've listened to the mic. The middle ground starts with tuning your PA to the room! Being quiet enough is a whole different issue. Distorted tone sounds fine when it's mic'd :)
 
#684
two fingers said:
I have worked with (literally) 100+ bass players. Have you? Experience DOES account for something. I have had to try to work with and mix hundreds of musicians. Have you?
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For the record:
I've earned at least some on my income from live music for more years than you've been alive.

So, in most cases, it doesn't MATTER what the capability of the ear and gear of the bass player is. They don't WANT to adjust ANYTHING.
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I find that attitude more prevalent among "soundmen" and "kids" than among "musicians".

I feel sorry for you needing to work with those types. Luckily I don't.

As I've said many times: The ability to self-mix has become a lost art.
 
#686
wcriley said:
As I've said many times: The ability to self-mix has become a lost art.
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That is my point. The art is lost. The DESIRE is not there. It is more about "me" (meaning individual band members) than the band.

So, again, being "equipped" to provide your own amazing tone that sits well in a mix and does not fight room acoustics and DOING it are two completely different things.
 
#687
And for those of you who keep throwing out "tuning the PA to the room",let me say this.

Sure, I can tune the PA to the room. I can EQ the PA to a point where the entire frequency spectrum will find its way through most rooms (some are hopeless). However, if you try to jam something through in a mix that does NOT play nice with the room, I have to change it. Some things I can change without affecting what you are going for overall. In some cases, however, I have to yank things out that don't get along with the room. So, we as the audience will never be graced by your amazing tone to begin with.

The point is, either you two (bass player and sound guy) can work something out, or the guy on the back end (that would be the sound guy) will win out every time. You can't control what he does from the stage. In fact, in most cases you don't even KNOW what he has done to your sound out front. So, it would be best for you if you work WITH them instead of trying to lock horns. Because, again, you can't win that fight.

(All that being said, I get along with most guys. And most bass players sound fine.... or at least good "enough". But I completely understand the frustration of those sound guys who have to constantly hear the pissing and moaning of guys who sound AWFUL and get all pissed because the sound guy won't just send that trash out to the masses.)
 
#691
wcriley said:
That's one of the reasons I seldom go out to listen to live music these days.
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Its a brute force method for overcoming room problems by overpowering just about everything. Sort of like high HP muscle cars...big engines over aerodynamics.

It makes many live mixes completely incomparable to recorded music because the kick is so far out front that everything else is background noise.
 
#693
two fingers said:
And for those of you who keep throwing out "tuning the PA to the room",let me say this.

Sure, I can tune the PA to the room. I can EQ the PA to a point where the entire frequency spectrum will find its way through most rooms (some are hopeless). However, if you try to jam something through in a mix that does NOT play nice with the room, I have to change it. Some things I can change without affecting what you are going for overall. In some cases, however, I have to yank things out that don't get along with the room. So, we as the audience will never be graced by your amazing tone to begin with.

The point is, either you two (bass player and sound guy) can work something out, or the guy on the back end (that would be the sound guy) will win out every time. You can't control what he does from the stage. In fact, in most cases you don't even KNOW what he has done to your sound out front. So, it would be best for you if you work WITH them instead of trying to lock horns. Because, again, you can't win that fight.

(All that being said, I get along with most guys. And most bass players sound fine.... or at least good "enough". But I completely understand the frustration of those sound guys who have to constantly hear the pissing and moaning of guys who sound AWFUL and get all pissed because the sound guy won't just send that trash out to the masses.)
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The band I used to play with had (up to) 3 fiddle players in it, all of who we needed to hear in the foldback, and it used to be a feedback nightmare waiting to happen especially if they moved around. So we switched to Bridge electric fiddles -- nice sound, much less synthetic than most -- and the problem disappeared.

One of the fiddlers didn't like the idea, she thought her very nice acoustic fiddle had a much better tone -- which it did, acoustically in her ear. Her husband was our sound guy at the time, and he pointed out that he had to EQ the hell out it to get it to work on stage without feedback, by which time the beautiful tone was completely screwed, and that the electric fiddle actually sounded better out front.

And they were plug-and-go in any hall once the basic FOH sound was sorted out -- no variation in mic position or feedback or stage/mic stand resonance or stage wash, same EQ every time, same sound in the foldback.

A miced up bass cabinet isn't as bad as a fiddle, but exactly the same principle applies -- if you want to sound good out front, use an instrument setup that works with the PA and soundman not against them. If you think a miced cabinet does this then good for you, you're happy, and maybe it also sounds good out front -- or maybe it doesn't, and maybe you don't know...

A genuine question for people who use cabinet mics -- do you use a cats cradle (vibration isolating) mount for the mic, like shown in the photo of cabinet measurements?

I've had problems with suspended stages where the bass cab vibrates the stage and this is picked up through the mic stand, which can give a nasty boomy resonant peak around 100-200Hz -- happens sometimes but not others, is sensitive to exact positioning of mic and cab on the stage, or even where the bass player is standing nearby (acts as a damper). A cats cradle mount cures this, but I've rarely seen them used.
 
#694
Downunderwonder said:
What about the big rooms? You got enough firepower to make a real mess.
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For big rooms I make myself balance with our stage mix, unless told specifically by FOH that I'm too loud for what they're doing, then I adjust and most likely our guys will ask for more bass in their monitors on other parts of the stage. 90% of the time my 'comfy zone' in terms of volume doesn't cause problems. Being in the reggae world, I get a bit more leeway on my volume than some other genres, and there's not a whole lot else stepping in my frequency neighborhood. Worse comes to worse, I can angle my setup across stage a bit more.

I can only think of one time last year in a theater gig where I was told to bring my stage volume down and I spent our whole (luckily short) set smiling and nodding and not hearing a single damn note I was playing. One other time I used a shared backline (Markbass 500w head/12" combo with matching extension) and I spent all night trying to find a place on stage where I could hear it comfortably. That wasn't the soundman's problem that was a too small a rig problem. In those situations I might as well just sit on the bass amp and try to feel what I'm doing.

I smile either way though. :) That's the work part of things.
 
#695
wcriley said:
For the record:
I've earned at least some on my income from live music for more years than you've been alive..
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The man I replaced at my current job had been doing this job more years that I've been alive. I spend at least a little time everyday fixing stupid mistakes he made. I wish experienced meant "refined" as often as it meant "stubbornly resistant to change".
 
#696
squeezer said:
...she thought her very nice acoustic fiddle had a much better tone -- which it did, acoustically in her ear. Her husband was our sound guy at the time, and he pointed out that he had to EQ the hell out it to get it to work on stage without feedback, by which time the beautiful tone was completely screwed, and that the electric fiddle actually sounded better out front.
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I've had a similar experience with my EUB. Sure, it gets the purist turned up nose and ridiculed as a poor substitute for the real thing. That may be, and in the controlled environment of a session the real thing is obviously better. But I've also had more than a couple soundmen tell me it sounds more acoustic than most acoustics they've mic'ed for the reasons you just outlined.

I'm all for whatever works, I'm a pragmatist at heart. But I also defend a bassist's tone goals as being every bit as important as anyone else's, and far too often that concern is dismissed or discounted.
 
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