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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

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I think it's a combination of things -

1) Laziness/ease of use
2) Lack of musicians (not just bass players) being able to differentiate between needs and wants

Most people on this thread -- me included -- weren't being disrespectful to players who wanted to do it their way *and were happy with it* (like JimmyM), and acknowledged that there are pros and cons to different ways and no one "always right" way of doing it (though different people have different ideas about what is "best", usually for them). If it works for you and you're happy, stick with it.

They were trying to answer the original question and suggest ways that might help people who weren't happy with their sound out front -- with different suggestions from different people including careful mic choice and placement, combined mic/DI, pure DI after effects/simulator, and how all these affect the FOH sound and setup time/effort.

Saying that it's about laziness/ease of use is missing the point entirely and playing the "let's blame the soundman" game again -- if you choose a setup which might make it more difficult to get a good sound out front, don't expect as much sympathy from the soundman if you then complain that there wasn't enough setup time or effort expended on your instrument and that the FOH sound was bad. (NB. Doesn't apply to JimmyH who never has any problems)

As usual, some people seem to make statements about things they either don't understand (acoustics) or have no actual experience with (FOH setup), but this should be no surprise for an Internet forum... ;-)
 
Yeah, that's pretty much an integral part of doing his job *properly*, instead of acting like some wannabe producer...

This is where running wireless shines - I ALWAYS get out into the room and see what it sounds like, even when I'm not running sound from the stage...



- georgestrings

Of course, it depends upon the show. Big multi-band things I know the soundman isn't going to take the time and effort to put a lot into each act beyond a quick line check. But on 2 band gigs in real rooms, it makes sense. I'm always stunned when you play those and the soundman hasn't even been on stage, but had a lackey up setting the mics and running cables and really has no idea of what tone anyone wants. Because really, the SAME goes for guitar...if you don't go up and hear what it sounds like in the near field, you're not probably going to get close in the FOH.

Since moving to Jule's Monique I get way more feedback on my DI tone at the board...Lots of unsolicited 'holy crap that sounds great' and I also get a whole lot of sound guys who recognize my volume (loud) but don't complain because it works perfectly dovetailing with FOH. I also low pass steeply @35hz so I'm not causing trouble in the subs out front. I would guess it saves most soundmen a bunch of grief although many don't realize I'm even doing it.
 
@ThisBass: Maybe you don't realize that you burned yourself with your lecturing (=belehrend) rough comments, at least for this thread. I suggest to read this before further posting:
Invalid Link Removed
Thanks a lot.
I'm very sorry all about that. So I will try to read words more carefully and I'll try to do my best to write words with more civil way of behaving.
 
Of course, it depends upon the show. Big multi-band things I know the soundman isn't going to take the time and effort to put a lot into each act beyond a quick line check. But on 2 band gigs in real rooms, it makes sense. I'm always stunned when you play those and the soundman hasn't even been on stage, but had a lackey up setting the mics and running cables and really has no idea of what tone anyone wants. Because really, the SAME goes for guitar...if you don't go up and hear what it sounds like in the near field, you're not probably going to get close in the FOH.

Since moving to Jule's Monique I get way more feedback on my DI tone at the board...Lots of unsolicited 'holy crap that sounds great' and I also get a whole lot of sound guys who recognize my volume (loud) but don't complain because it works perfectly dovetailing with FOH. I also low pass steeply @35hz so I'm not causing trouble in the subs out front. I would guess it saves most soundmen a bunch of grief although many don't realize I'm even doing it.

Agreed 100% - fortunately, I almost never do multi-band shows...

I could definitely see a Monique in my future - I'm all about a great sounding DI...


- georgestrings
 
Agreed 100% - fortunately, I almost never do multi-band shows...

I could definitely see a Monique in my future - I'm all about a great sounding DI...


- georgestrings

Hit me up if you want to check it at some point, either at a gig or in person. I avoid multi-band shows as much as possible, but festivals, benefits, etc. come along. We've also done some shows that were 2-band gigs and found some fast talking by someone somewhere made it 3 or more.
 
Hit me up if you want to check it at some point, either at a gig or in person. I avoid multi-band shows as much as possible, but festivals, benefits, etc. come along. We've also done some shows that were 2-band gigs and found some fast talking by someone somewhere made it 3 or more.

I'd like to do that, but I've gotta feeling that gigging schedules will make that tough - we're booked into May already...

Thanks for the offer, though - I appreciate it...


- georgestrings
 
I'd like to do that, but I've gotta feeling that gigging schedules will make that tough - we're booked into May already...

Thanks for the offer, though - I appreciate it...


- georgestrings


Nice. We're picking things up fast this year too. I've got one place that has us booked through November and a bunch of other stuff locked for spring and looking at summer.
 
So you run sound, too...bully for you. That doesn't mean your word means any more than anyone else, nor does it mean we should all cowtow to what your idea of good tone is because it's the way you think it's supposed to be done. The best soundmen I ever worked with can make ANYTHING sound good, and they do it in a way that respects the musicians, and the worst soundmen I ever worked with are the "my way or the highway" types who think they're going to save you from yourself by forcing you to use their janky little $40 DI instead of the rig you spent big money on trying to carefully craft a sound that works for their band. If that $40 DI works for you, go do your own gigs and use it. Don't tell me what to do on my own gigs, though.

Just pipe down already and realize there's a whole big world outside of your narrow little mindset where bass players might dare to have a different idea of what good sound is than you. Quit trying to tell other bass players what they should do.

Ha! We've had this argument before Jim. And my mind hasn't changed at all. There are a couple things that SOME bass players do NOT get.

1) Physics. "Your sound" is not going to produce the same way through massive 2-18 subs, 2-15 mids, and massive horns the same way it comes out of a sealed 8-10. So it will not even CLOSELY resemble what is coming out of your amp, EVEN IF you mic it.

2) Context. "Your sound" may sound like the left hand of God on a 20 foot Steinway (with just the right amount of angelic fuzz) in your bedroom, your practice room, even on your album. But "your sound" may just sound like a 5 gallon bucket of steaming crap in the mix, through the PA, in a club that has all the acoustics of a small gym.

3) Business. MY REPUTATION is ALSO on the line when I run sound for you. And many club owners, band members, and even music fans think that we are magicians. If something sounds horrible, WHO are they going to look at with that annoying "What the ****" look on their faces? Not the guy with the 15 distortion pedals running into the 15 gigawatt amp and 7 8-10 cabs. They are going to look at ME! So, I DO have somewhat of an obligation to protect MY company, MY reputation, and MY mix. Especially if I am running sound for more than one band, I have potential customers standing around the room all night. And, again, they are doing long division in their heads. If something sounds "wrong" they think I suck...... simple as that. But, I can't polish a turd. Crap in = crap out. And if I can help it, crap out is not an option.

So, sure, some sound guys have not learned anything new since 1983, and have bad attitudes as well. But it is the HEIGHT of overgrown 4 year old whiney wussy EGO TRIPPING DIVA-hood for ANY musician to simply say "I don't care WHAT you think. This is MY SOUND. YOU make it work."

So, your comments will have lots of fans here in the bass universe. But in context, they aren't very useful at all. All that being said, I understand you have tons of experience and talent. And I am sure you are also smart. But I also (based on several threads) think you are going through a bit of a chip on your shoulder stage over having "played it safe" and pretty much "did what you were told to get work" for most of your career. I get it. You are encouraging young players do "do your own thing" and "don't let anyone tell you any different". There is some wisdom in that as well.

But, there HAS to be some middle ground between the direction your knee jerks and the direction mine does. :D
 
Saying that it's about laziness/ease of use is missing the point entirely and playing the "let's blame the soundman" game again -- if you choose a setup which might make it more difficult to get a good sound out front, don't expect as much sympathy from the soundman if you then complain that there wasn't enough setup time or effort expended on your instrument and that the FOH sound was bad. (NB. Doesn't apply to JimmyH who never has any problems)

As usual, some people seem to make statements about things they either don't understand (acoustics) or have no actual experience with (FOH setup), but this should be no surprise for an Internet forum... ;-)

Bee Eye Ehn Gee Oh.

Laziness (intellectual anyway) defined is blaming the sound guy for the fact that your setup and/or your sound is hard to impossible to fit into a mix and make sound amazing during a 20 minute changeover period between bands. Rather than even CONSIDER changing ANYTHING about your setup/sound, it is simply easier to play "tackle the sound guy". Gimme a break. I AM A BASS PLAYER. So, of course I understand the plight of the bass player. To assume otherwise because I don't bend over and spread my cheeks upon hearing your glorious amazing perfect tone is pure ignorance. I don't have all night. You aren't all I have to do tonight. I have 32 other channels, 21 other egos, 5 "management teams", a "promoter", a club owner/manager, and about $50K+ in equipment that require my attention as well.
 
1) Physics. "Your sound" is not going to produce the same way through massive 2-18 subs, 2-15 mids, and massive horns the same way it comes out of a sealed 8-10. So it will not even CLOSELY resemble what is coming out of your amp, EVEN IF you mic it.

There is no reason why a properly tuned system, operated by someone reasonably competent, will "not even closely resemble" whatever it's fed.

2) Context. "Your sound" may sound like the left hand of God on a 20 foot Steinway (with just the right amount of angelic fuzz) in your bedroom, your practice room, even on your album. But "your sound" may just sound like a 5 gallon bucket of steaming crap in the mix, through the PA, in a club that has all the acoustics of a small gym.

I get so tired of hearing/reading about how a soundman is better equipped than the musician to make the bass fit the "mix" and the "room".

This might be true of pro/tour systems, but the vast majority of bass players are working with MUCH smaller systems, with far less EQ capability that can be assigned to the bass guitar channel(s), than I have in my bass amp. (High and low shelving; 4 bands of semi-parametric.)
 
....There are a couple things that SOME bass players do NOT get...
Some good points, but a couple observations.

1) every one of your points could and do apply to a mic'ed guitar amp as well. And yet, guitarists do not meet NEARLY the resistance to micing that bass players do. Soundmen are often forced to deal with it, do so, and the good ones make it work (miraculously, I guess...) I submit this difference is not based on physics, but the general sentiment that bass tone isn't worth the extra effort.

2) divas. Yep, there are a lot of them out there. But there is no reason to believe (as you seem to imply) that is any more common from the musican end than the soundman end. Again, no guitarist is ever accused of being a diva if he says he needs his cab mic'ed because it's an integral part of his tone. That is accepted. A bassist does the exact same thing and is ignorant and a diva....
 
Of course, it depends upon the show. Big multi-band things I know the soundman isn't going to take the time and effort to put a lot into each act beyond a quick line check. But on 2 band gigs in real rooms, it makes sense. I'm always stunned when you play those and the soundman hasn't even been on stage, but had a lackey up setting the mics and running cables and really has no idea of what tone anyone wants. Because really, the SAME goes for guitar...if you don't go up and hear what it sounds like in the near field, you're not probably going to get close in the FOH.

Since moving to Jule's Monique I get way more feedback on my DI tone at the board...Lots of unsolicited 'holy crap that sounds great' and I also get a whole lot of sound guys who recognize my volume (loud) but don't complain because it works perfectly dovetailing with FOH. I also low pass steeply @35hz so I'm not causing trouble in the subs out front. I would guess it saves most soundmen a bunch of grief although many don't realize I'm even doing it.
I think you mean high pass at 35hz, which is quite a bit lower than most PA are highpassed, and far from soundmen not knowing what you're up to, your rig is probably doing all the low end by itself!
 
I get so tired of hearing/reading about how a soundman is better equipped than the musician to make the bass fit the "mix" and the "room".

This might be true of pro/tour systems, but the vast majority of bass players are working with MUCH smaller systems, with far less EQ capability that can be assigned to the bass guitar channel(s), than I have in my bass amp. (High and low shelving; 4 bands of semi-parametric.)

I will grant you that 100%. However, MOST bass players don't CARE about the "room" or the "mix". They have in their heads what THEY want to hear ON STAGE. And it is MY job to take that sound (whatever it is) and FORCE it into a mix. Sure, they COULD mix their bass to the room or band mix using their "vast knowledge" and "amazing gear". But the vast majority have NO DESIRE to. I'm not just assuming here. I have worked with (literally) 100+ bass players. Have you? Experience DOES account for something. I have had to try to work with and mix hundreds of musicians. Have you?

So, in most cases, it doesn't MATTER what the capability of the ear and gear of the bass player is. They don't WANT to adjust ANYTHING. (Never mind that the same goes for the drummer, the guitar player (or three), and don't even get me started on keyboard players.)
 
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