Which is why I feel fortunate that of my four current projects only one has a drummer, and he's top notch (and a good guy, too).
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Why is it always the drummer?
- Thread starter Mystic Michael
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buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
I don't think it's that druumer per se have less ability - more that you notice that bad ones more, and that at lower levels of ability, there are people who think making noise makes you a musician. You can pick any instrument and find examples of overplaying and imitators trying to play above their ability.
Wow, indeed. Bill's insights are profound...yet intuitively obvious.
Another way I might render the point is "mature vs. immature". Because a mature player - of any instrument - will have developed more than sufficient chops to handle the situation at hand...and will realize that because he doesn't have to worry about insufficient chops, he is then free to focus on his actual musicianship. An immature player will often fail to transcend that particular hurdle. If he's insecure about his chops, he'll try to overcome his perceived weakness by making it all about chops. And if he's got great chops, he'll often push his "chops agenda" to the nth degree...hoping his chops will compensate for any potential weakness in musicianship - even to the point of entering into Bill Evans' "zone of confusion".
The player of any instrument can be subject to falling into this trap, but for whatever reason, drummers seem to be the most vulnerable. Again, it probably has to do with the nature of the instrument(s): It's very exposed, and it requires a considerable degree of technical skill just to achieve the threshold of competence (high "barrier to entry" in business terms). Add to that the fact that drummers typically don't need to have much knowledge of harmony or melody, and it's easy to see how musically one-sided and "chops obsessed" an immature drummer can be - and the kind of person that the role is likely to attract.
I liken a musically immature drummer with great chops to a first-time, 16 year-old driver...with the keys to Dad's Maserati. If the purpose of music is to get from one place to another, preferably in style, a musical Maserati will do the job very nicely indeed - IF the driver is able to control it enough to subordinate it to the task at hand: to get from Point A to Point B without any major mishaps. But the temptation to open up the throttle to see what she'll do can be powerful indeed - whether doing so serves the purpose of the trip or not. And if he can't control it, he'll put it in the ditch...or even wrap it around a tree.
IME, musical maturity isn't necessarily correlated with chronological age. Mature players can be surprisingly young. And immature players are of all ages.
MM
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Would you mind cloning him for me? I'd be willing to raise my clone from the cradle if necessary...just so I'd have access to his services 18 years from now.
MM
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
I have the same drummer in all three current projects. Nut, but a great player, with more musical maturity than most.
The time thing is important, the ones that do well at it work.
I have been fortunate to play with a few great ones that do make the band.
I have been fortunate to play with a few great ones that do make the band.
Here you go. Don't fear, the spoken words are in English. This piece is wonderful in many ways. Enjoy.
Wasn't it Chet Baker who said "It takes a really good drummer to be better than no drummer"?
I've been pretty fortunate with drummers over the years, mostly because I can afford to be picky about who I play with.
There are two things that make the drummer the weak link so often, IMO: one is that the trap kit is an extraordinarily difficult instrument to learn to play - well. The second is that it's a fairly easy instrument to learn to play poorly. Now, that's true, to some extent, with any instrument but with drums, as MM points out, it's really, really obvious when a drummer can't hack it. I often experience frustration with players of other instruments having poor time - singers especially - and I think that has a negative impact on any band, and a bigger impact than a lot of people realize, but when the drummer is weak it really stands out and if the drummer's weak in a band that has other members who also have trouble with time, it compounds immeasurably!
Drums are not exempt from musicianship, and I wish more drummers knew this. Then again, I wish more singers and guitarists knew this, too! Most of the drummers I've been lucky enough to play with are real musicians; many play other instruments (or tuned percussion), listen well, cooperate and have good ideas about arranging. In fact, I've found that a lot of good drummers are savvy arrangers.
MM is right: it all comes down to the drummer's contribution being so completely foundational that errors are magnified to the Nth degree. The fact that a lot of non-musicians gravitate to the drums because they expect it to be easy doesn't help matters any. Drums are anything but easy, and that misconception has forced countless REAL drummers to endure drummer jokes endlessly.
I've been pretty fortunate with drummers over the years, mostly because I can afford to be picky about who I play with.
There are two things that make the drummer the weak link so often, IMO: one is that the trap kit is an extraordinarily difficult instrument to learn to play - well. The second is that it's a fairly easy instrument to learn to play poorly. Now, that's true, to some extent, with any instrument but with drums, as MM points out, it's really, really obvious when a drummer can't hack it. I often experience frustration with players of other instruments having poor time - singers especially - and I think that has a negative impact on any band, and a bigger impact than a lot of people realize, but when the drummer is weak it really stands out and if the drummer's weak in a band that has other members who also have trouble with time, it compounds immeasurably!
Drums are not exempt from musicianship, and I wish more drummers knew this. Then again, I wish more singers and guitarists knew this, too! Most of the drummers I've been lucky enough to play with are real musicians; many play other instruments (or tuned percussion), listen well, cooperate and have good ideas about arranging. In fact, I've found that a lot of good drummers are savvy arrangers.
MM is right: it all comes down to the drummer's contribution being so completely foundational that errors are magnified to the Nth degree. The fact that a lot of non-musicians gravitate to the drums because they expect it to be easy doesn't help matters any. Drums are anything but easy, and that misconception has forced countless REAL drummers to endure drummer jokes endlessly.
When you find that great drummer stick with him/her. It is a joy, it is liberating playing with a great drummer. The music becomes almost effortless. Push the beat, play on the beat, play behind the beat. Someone who can do that, feel the difference, and listen to the singer is awesome to play with.
There is some truth to that ... sometimes it's a bit liberating to play without a drummer - lower volume, more room for details to be heard, fewer people fighting over where the beat is.
wmhill
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over my 4-5 decades of playing ... I've been lucky with mostly good to very good drummers ...
but most seem to think they can just play whatever crap might come into there drug minds without practicing said fills ...??!! or all the different parts , strokes , rudiments , techniques , etc ... involved in said fill ... !? I started on piano at 6 ... when any mistake was made , the passage , measure , finferging , whatever ... was gone over and over until it was correct ... which also instilled the muscle memory ...
timing and feel is a different subject ... hard for the 'closed minded' to grasp , ... if ever ..
as with everything ... practice , listen , learn .... and be mindful of everything going on around you ...
but most seem to think they can just play whatever crap might come into there drug minds without practicing said fills ...??!! or all the different parts , strokes , rudiments , techniques , etc ... involved in said fill ... !? I started on piano at 6 ... when any mistake was made , the passage , measure , finferging , whatever ... was gone over and over until it was correct ... which also instilled the muscle memory ...
timing and feel is a different subject ... hard for the 'closed minded' to grasp , ... if ever ..
as with everything ... practice , listen , learn .... and be mindful of everything going on around you ...
A poor drummer can certainly ruin any chances of an otherwise decently talented band from sounding good. Drummers are the most important part of the puzzle. The foundation. With an unstable foundation, everything else falls apart. Bass players are the glue and nails that fasten everything else to the foundation.
Drummers have virtually no room for error. Their mistakes must be brief and graceful. It's a lot of responsibility, and takes a large amount of talent to do right.
I have always considered myself a drummer playing bass. Enough so to where I could hold it down in a simple rock band playing drums. At the same time, I am in no way a real drummer. The real deal eats, sleeps, and breathes the drums. They have no interest in being the bass player or lead singer. How many "bass" players do you know who are actually just bad guitar players? Quite a few I'd imagine.
I guess my point is that any real band MUST have a stable and competent rhythm section. Personally, I wouldn't be able to stay in a project with a poor drummer.
Drummers have virtually no room for error. Their mistakes must be brief and graceful. It's a lot of responsibility, and takes a large amount of talent to do right.
I have always considered myself a drummer playing bass. Enough so to where I could hold it down in a simple rock band playing drums. At the same time, I am in no way a real drummer. The real deal eats, sleeps, and breathes the drums. They have no interest in being the bass player or lead singer. How many "bass" players do you know who are actually just bad guitar players? Quite a few I'd imagine.
I guess my point is that any real band MUST have a stable and competent rhythm section. Personally, I wouldn't be able to stay in a project with a poor drummer.
I've played with one really good drummer in over 40 years of playing. That's why my current lineup has no drummer....and we are staying busy!
+1. I've been to shows where you can't hear the bass, the keyboards, the singer, or even the guitarist. But I've never been to one where you couldn't hear the drums. So if they screw up it's noticeable. And not only can everyone hear it, they can SEE it.
A good drummer makes all the difference.
Ringo took a great band to a greater level.
IMHO
Ringo took a great band to a greater level.
IMHO
After the nightmare experience from my previous band's drummer - http://www.talkbass.com/threads/epic-band-breakup-rage-non-quit.1069531/ - I have been truly blessed with a sane, sober and diligent drummer who is young, open minded and truly committed. It's his first gigging band, but he has a music background and plays several instruments. At first he was a bit tentative, but his growth in the past 8 months has been astonishing, and he's morphing into a human metronome. I knew we had a winner when I saw him writing out his parts with notes at rehearsals. 
Someone pinch me I must be dreaming.
Someone pinch me I must be dreaming.
I agree with this, but throw a weak drummer into Manhattan Transfer or the Beach Boys and they will sound like poo.
I am 100% on point with MM. I've played with my fair share of drummers and it's been a roller coaster ride. Some just plain suck, some have been decent, some close to being at the next level and working to get there, and one guy at the top of his game. It's seemed I've been able to pull off gigs with mediocre vocalists, guitarists etc., but the drumming has been the deal breaker. I got to play with this guy for about 4 years and it was some of the best "live playing" education of my life. Our singer was average, and we had some good musicians and music but this guy took us to another level. (Watch from 3:25 on for some fun!)
I can't disagree with what is said here, I too believe that a drummer can make or break a band.
I look at my time keeping to be the most important part of what I do. I've been playing drums forty-five years, and professionally for thirty-nine of them. I still practice regularly with a metronome to ensure that my time is solid. If a song has a particularly difficult passage, I count it EVERY time that I play it. I don't do this because I have bad time, I do it to ensure that it doesn't waver. Ever.
I don't make my fills flashier than they need to be and if a song has a signature fill, I make a point to learn it. My job isn't to show off, it is to support the singer and the song. That is what it's about, plain and simple, as a drummer it's what I am there to do.
When I teach, this is what I try to get into my student's heads. If you want to work and be respected as a drummer, work on your time, support the singer and the song and park your ego at the door.
A good, solid drummer will never lack for work.
I look at my time keeping to be the most important part of what I do. I've been playing drums forty-five years, and professionally for thirty-nine of them. I still practice regularly with a metronome to ensure that my time is solid. If a song has a particularly difficult passage, I count it EVERY time that I play it. I don't do this because I have bad time, I do it to ensure that it doesn't waver. Ever.
I don't make my fills flashier than they need to be and if a song has a signature fill, I make a point to learn it. My job isn't to show off, it is to support the singer and the song. That is what it's about, plain and simple, as a drummer it's what I am there to do.
When I teach, this is what I try to get into my student's heads. If you want to work and be respected as a drummer, work on your time, support the singer and the song and park your ego at the door.
A good, solid drummer will never lack for work.
