I look at this way... They invented the drum machine because of all the problems with drummers.
AND THAT STILL WASN'T ENOUGH
Go figure
AND THAT STILL WASN'T ENOUGH
Go figure
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Why is it always the drummer?
- Thread starter Mystic Michael
- Start date
EdwardofHuncote
I Still Dream of Jeannie
- Aug 21, 2013
- 6,667
- 2
- 16,464
- Disclosures
- I privately own and operate a local musical instument repair shop.
Good, constructive thread. :thumbup:
I've only recently begun playing bass guitar with drummers, and so far have been fortunate to play with some really good ones, making the experiences positive ones. The learning curve was mostly on *me*, but after getting comfortable with the extra punch in the rhythm section, I really enjoyed it. I grew up playing roots and fives in string bands where there are no drummers. The bass player is the crucial and primary timekeeper, the guitar and usually mandolin filling out the rhythm section.
I'm no drummer, (never will be either) but even I can see they are an extraordinarily difficult thing to play well. It's also by their nature, a very difficult instrument to hide any weakness.
One thing I will add to the discussion that Mystic Michael's original post touched on - every band needs a leader. Not just the guy that started or named the band, but a leader... someone with the rare ability to constructively criticize and steer the music, and make a change when necessary. It can be the difference between making a mediocre band better, and making a good band great.
I've only recently begun playing bass guitar with drummers, and so far have been fortunate to play with some really good ones, making the experiences positive ones. The learning curve was mostly on *me*, but after getting comfortable with the extra punch in the rhythm section, I really enjoyed it. I grew up playing roots and fives in string bands where there are no drummers. The bass player is the crucial and primary timekeeper, the guitar and usually mandolin filling out the rhythm section.
I'm no drummer, (never will be either) but even I can see they are an extraordinarily difficult thing to play well. It's also by their nature, a very difficult instrument to hide any weakness.
One thing I will add to the discussion that Mystic Michael's original post touched on - every band needs a leader. Not just the guy that started or named the band, but a leader... someone with the rare ability to constructively criticize and steer the music, and make a change when necessary. It can be the difference between making a mediocre band better, and making a good band great.
A band can only be as good as the drummer.
That's my opinion. Relationship with he drummer is always the most important for me.
That's my opinion. Relationship with he drummer is always the most important for me.
Drummers are always a peculiar breed. but once you get used to playing with a great one, you just can't go back to a plain, average drummer. I spent 4 years in band with a guy named Fred Eltringham who plays with Sheryl Crow now, but has done long stints with the Dixie Chicks, KD Lang, The Wallflowers with Jakob Dylan and a ton of session work. His feel was AMAZING even in his early 20s, just the thing to make me sound great as a bass player. When he wasn't available for a few gigs we used Abe Laboriel Jr. as a sub and that was quite alright, too. After all these years of playing with inspiring drummers, I just can't waste time playing with somebody who isn't great. On my last album, I tracked a bunch of stuff with Dave Mattacks from Fairport Convention (who also played on an XTC album I really love as well as work with McCartney, Elton John, Jimmy Page and a buttload of other people). Even after all these years, that was a major learning experience. It is a big, long journey to find the right drummers to play with, there's just no getting around it.
Something I believe, and I'm curious to read what the rest of you think about this, is that playing music with other people is somewhat akin to conversing. And, just like some people are better conversationalists than others, so are musicians.
And by a good conversationalist I am not meaning someone who necessarily has a great vocabulary, instead, I mean a good conversationalist is someone that listens to what is being said and responds to that; sometimes it means one leads the discussion, while other times hanging back. A poor conversationalist, on the other hand, is usually thinking about what they'll be saying when the current speaker stops, thereby missing a lot of the real meaning of what just got said.
I hope this makes sense to you folks!
And by a good conversationalist I am not meaning someone who necessarily has a great vocabulary, instead, I mean a good conversationalist is someone that listens to what is being said and responds to that; sometimes it means one leads the discussion, while other times hanging back. A poor conversationalist, on the other hand, is usually thinking about what they'll be saying when the current speaker stops, thereby missing a lot of the real meaning of what just got said.
I hope this makes sense to you folks!
I once played with a really good drummer who said "Don't be afraid to play something simple." Great advice!
It makes perfect sense. I'll just add that it's vital to distinguish between the vocabulary and the message. A good vocabulary allows you to convey a message with precision, clarity and style. Without a meaningful message to convey, it amounts to little more than mindless babble.
Content is almost always more important than form, though form is very important. Once again, content is king. Sorry Mick, but it's the song - not the singer.
MM
Drummer here (and obvious closet bass player) - gotta say I'm loving this love/hate drummer dialog. There's definitely something wrong with most of us. Gifted? All available blood collects in our pants? Raised by chimpanzees? Dropped on our heads as toddlers? Whatever it is makes us inexorably attracted to your girlfriends/sisters and tells us when it's appropriate to insert rampant fills in the middle of Sweet Caroline. (Hint: always.) Gotta love us.
I feel the drummer is the heart of the band and the bass is the soul. I have been very fortunite to of played with good drummers thru the years.
The drummer i p
Excellent advice. You notice with a good drummer playing simple makes what you play sound huge..I'm lucky for once again I am playing with a great drummer. His tempo and feel is perfect and He is very passionite about what he and I play.
The only issue is he sometimes picks apart my basslines and I have to back him off a bit.
The drummer i p
Excellent advice. You notice with a good drummer playing simple makes what you play sound huge..I'm lucky for once again I am playing with a great drummer. His tempo and feel is perfect and He is very passionite about what he and I play.
The only issue is he sometimes picks apart my basslines and I have to back him off a bit.
Haji
Supporting Member
Sure thing! Glad someone liked it. It's quite solid, interesting, and to me - helpful.
MM hits it on the head -
this is a chronically long term subject for me and I will add a few points that haven't been covered:
most drummers are so weak with tempo and groove that they don't allow the bassist to maximize his role within the band.
for example-
if drummer is not grooving well, bassist has to concentrate and dumb down his role to compensate for poor drummer; he becomes more rhythm than melodic. if drummer is solid, bassist can have a field day rhythmically and melodically and do a lot more than just trying to hold it together with roots.
I agree with the comment about drums being an easy instrument to play poorly and difficult to play well.
why cant a drummer sit down and study a guy like...say...Steve Jordan and just dissect what makes a guy like that groove til the cows come home? easy pocket grooves that make you bob your head and a smile to your face. why does everyone want to be neil peart?
I was playing with an other wise decent drummer the other day (at certain genres of music)-
he couldn't play Silent Night (6/8 time) to save his life. he had no idea what to play for it. are you kidding me? I was stunned...
this subject is my Achilles heel.
most drummers simply suck.
this is a chronically long term subject for me and I will add a few points that haven't been covered:
most drummers are so weak with tempo and groove that they don't allow the bassist to maximize his role within the band.
for example-
if drummer is not grooving well, bassist has to concentrate and dumb down his role to compensate for poor drummer; he becomes more rhythm than melodic. if drummer is solid, bassist can have a field day rhythmically and melodically and do a lot more than just trying to hold it together with roots.
I agree with the comment about drums being an easy instrument to play poorly and difficult to play well.
why cant a drummer sit down and study a guy like...say...Steve Jordan and just dissect what makes a guy like that groove til the cows come home? easy pocket grooves that make you bob your head and a smile to your face. why does everyone want to be neil peart?
I was playing with an other wise decent drummer the other day (at certain genres of music)-
he couldn't play Silent Night (6/8 time) to save his life. he had no idea what to play for it. are you kidding me? I was stunned...
this subject is my Achilles heel.
most drummers simply suck.
That musical maturity it's what counts most IMHO: when the drummers not only knows his parts, but also listens at the other players, and give the song the space it needs, it's a musical heaven!!! Maybe he's not the most gifted drummer ever, but when there's sensibility, space and a good ambient driving all this, everything else comes by itself
I'm currently in my 6th year as a high school band director. I've been involved in marching band, whether as a student or a teacher, for the past 17 years. I've also been gigging as a bass player for the last 10 years. In my experience, I've found that drummers with extensive marching band drumline experience tend to be better drummers/musicians than those without that background. Again, this is just from my personal experience.
I believe the reason for this is time and energy that is spent focusing on precision, feel, timing, unity, listening, dynamics, fine muscle control, and above all, developing a steady internal sense of pulse/tempo in a marching band drumline setting. I'm not saying a drummer without that experience can't be great at those things. But I do believe that experience helps facilitate those skills better and more quickly.
My best friend is also the drummer in the band in which I play bass. We've been heavily gigging together for about 5 years now. He has about as much drumline experience as anyone I know, having even marched with a top-tier DCI (Drum Corps International) corp for two summers. The guy has spent more time playing with a metronome than I care to imagine. Needless to say, he possesses those skills I mentioned above at an extremely high level. And when we're on a gig, it shows.
His sense of tempo is as solid as can be. He's essentially a human metronome. And his feel, dynamic control, and precision are phenomenal. Gig after gig, playing with him makes me love playing music, and makes my job on bass so much easier. But he's just one of many drummers I've had experience with. And I've typically had more luck with drummers who have a drumline background.
Now, I certainly don't believe that being a good rudimental drummer automatically translates to having good drumset chops, or vice-versa. But the musicianship qualities do translate directly. This is all just from the experiences I've had personally, and your mileage may vary. I know that many of the best drumset players in the world never had that rudimental drumline background.
I believe the reason for this is time and energy that is spent focusing on precision, feel, timing, unity, listening, dynamics, fine muscle control, and above all, developing a steady internal sense of pulse/tempo in a marching band drumline setting. I'm not saying a drummer without that experience can't be great at those things. But I do believe that experience helps facilitate those skills better and more quickly.
My best friend is also the drummer in the band in which I play bass. We've been heavily gigging together for about 5 years now. He has about as much drumline experience as anyone I know, having even marched with a top-tier DCI (Drum Corps International) corp for two summers. The guy has spent more time playing with a metronome than I care to imagine. Needless to say, he possesses those skills I mentioned above at an extremely high level. And when we're on a gig, it shows.
His sense of tempo is as solid as can be. He's essentially a human metronome. And his feel, dynamic control, and precision are phenomenal. Gig after gig, playing with him makes me love playing music, and makes my job on bass so much easier. But he's just one of many drummers I've had experience with. And I've typically had more luck with drummers who have a drumline background.
Now, I certainly don't believe that being a good rudimental drummer automatically translates to having good drumset chops, or vice-versa. But the musicianship qualities do translate directly. This is all just from the experiences I've had personally, and your mileage may vary. I know that many of the best drumset players in the world never had that rudimental drumline background.
I once had a drummer quit right in the middle of rehearsal just because the guitarist said, "what if we played it this way?" He was a decent drummer, not great but competent, we were all just hired guns to do a live gig on channel 7 morning news in Chicago for a singer/songwriter. So, we ended up with another drummer who was an unreal player, did the gig with no rehearsals with him and it went off without a hitch. God forbid you question a drummer!!!!
And this is why people who complain about Ringo being "lucky" obviously don't know what they're talking about. Ringo and Charlie Watts don't play around the kit like mad, but they're rock-solid, and know what to play and when. Even Moonie would listen to the rest of the band and keep things tight. I've worked with 16-year-old drummers who had all the fills, but couldn't keep simple time to save their life. Ringo, Charlie, Jim Keltner - they'll do just fine for me, thanks.
