From what I hear, there are no longer unsolved technical issues with the demountable double bass neck. There appear to be price and acceptance issues only.
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Double Bass Why not make Upright Bass Necks Bolt ons?
- Thread starter PauFerro
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- double bass necks
From what I hear, there are no longer unsolved technical issues with the demountable double bass neck. There appear to be price and acceptance issues only.
Sorry, but I will bet you a six pack of your favorite beverage that you are barking up the wrong tree here. I can assure you that product design engineers are very aware of repairability. I am positive that the dictate came down from the upper floors: "This car has to have a V8 engine option for [insert marketeer-speak BS here] reason." Maybe the engineers risked their jobs and tried to explain the damn thing wouldn't fit, or maybe they just shrugged, rolled their eyes, and set about figuring out how to fit 10 lbs. of "stuff" into a 5 lb. bag. But I guarantee you this was not an engineering-driven decision.
When the automobile started, it was a work of art made by fine craftsmen. That broke down every couple of miles and couldn't get out of its own way.
400 years ago, a suit of clothes was a work of art made by fine craftsmen. Most people were lucky if they could afford one complete suit of clothes.
You are confusing how you feel about the object and what comes out of it, with the technical requirements for its function.
Do you really believe that a high quality double bass can only be made by outdated manual processes and that no mechanical improvements can be made?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
At this point, given the numerous designs of demountable double bass necks that exist, I would estimate R&D costs at $18.47. (Plus or minus $0.77)
I disagree that there would be no manufacturing cost reduction for those makers dealing with a certain level of volume. My rough guess would be that at something around 50-100 pcs per year, the cost of the hardware would start to be offset by the reduction in labor required to do the fine fitting of a traditional neck joint. However, I haven't even done a back of the envelope calculation.
I do agree that the demand seems to be relatively small and mostly driven by the travel needs rather than repairability or adjustability. "TRADITIOOOONNNN!" is also, as usual, playing its part in limiting purchaser interest. I suspect that as long as the demountable neck is perceived as a "travel bass option", the volume will be low, makers will charge a hefty premium, thus keeping the volume low, etc., etc., rinse and repeat.
It might be interesting for one of the well known makers to transition all their basses to demountable necks. Even more interesting if they made a big splash about doing it on their top of the line models. What do you think, Engelhardt? Upton? Shen? Christopher? Gliga?
It seems that a lot of the concern about CCBs is the neck joint; what if one of those outfits went to the demountable neck and demonstrated that with the demountable neck, the durability exceeds that of name brand instruments?
I suppose if I'm honest, I'd have to admit I wouldn't have it done on my main bass. I had a new neck put on it about two years ago now. Quantum Bass in Houston did a beautiful job and it feels so solid and fantastic to play. I wouldn't have the conversion done if I was paid to.
I like the idea of having a dedicated travel bass.
I don't think travel is a small need, though. Even the most basic working bass players get out of town gigs once and a while.
I like the idea of having a dedicated travel bass.
I don't think travel is a small need, though. Even the most basic working bass players get out of town gigs once and a while.
A quick internet search yields several prominent bass builders and companies using RN technology. Some very big name performers either have had basses built or had their old basses converted. AFAICT it's already happening as fast as the market can bear. There is no "grand conspiracy" to keep us bass players in the dark ages.
For me, the title of the thread is misleading because the neck joint on a double bass is very different from the neck joint on an electric bass. A well constructed and fit DB neck mortise doesn't need much of anything to keep it stable... a small bolt or a little hide glue on the button. The whole discussion of scale of "manufacture" and cheap basses is the same old issue, it's still cheaper to have people make BSOs regardless of the technology that could be brought to the production line.
For me, the title of the thread is misleading because the neck joint on a double bass is very different from the neck joint on an electric bass. A well constructed and fit DB neck mortise doesn't need much of anything to keep it stable... a small bolt or a little hide glue on the button. The whole discussion of scale of "manufacture" and cheap basses is the same old issue, it's still cheaper to have people make BSOs regardless of the technology that could be brought to the production line.
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Good question. I had the same thought. The luthier I spoke to cited the neck joint as a major flaw in CCB's. The other was the lack of reinforcement at the corners with wood blocks, the use of cheap plywood with air spaces in it -- often whatever kind of plywood they can find.
So, there would have to be a strong commitment to quality to overcome the many weaknesses. I think the removeable neck, bolted in place would really help the CCB's be more stable, particularly if they invested in created neck joints that were right. My luthier told me the joints are often not tight, with the spaces filled in with sawdust and glue.
i totally do.
this is my bass....not my car.
i am not a "a bass is just a tool guy"
i also said this...
Additionally, CCBs BSOs, etc are made from inexpensive green wood that is, at best, unpredictable as to how it will change, shrink, twist, etc. as it cures. While I agree the neck joint is an issue on these instruments, the underlying principle that somehow if the neck joint was better the bass would be inherently better is a stretch. The whole point of a cheap bass is that it is cheap... as in, it doesn't cost a lot either to buy or build. YGWYPF
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my ideal bass would be cornerless, it would have an adjustable, removable neck that allowed for string height changes, the bridge would be non adjustable. The neck would not have the big heel, this would avoid the weak cross grain issue that leads to breakage and failure. I would have a port for easy soundpost adjustment. It would be a flatback w/propeller bracing, this would avoid the ladder, cross grain bracing that creates wood movement problems. In fact I would avoid all cross grain issues by making the neck block and bottom bout block align w/the rib wood grain. I might alter the headstock, make it smaller to reduce size and weight. These alterations are basic wood movement and structural changes based on how to use wood effectively. These ideas are all ones I've seen done by real professional luthier's.
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I definitely think that the DB can be improved in both design and manufacturing. I suspect most bassists and luthiers agree. It's really a matter of deciding what you want done, and finding someone willing to do it. Progress is likely to be slow because relatively few basses are made, and they last a long time. Most people buy basses that have already been made, so the demand has to somehow move up through the dealer network, and reach the bass makers.
In the case of detachable necks, I suspect that most of the present demand has come from people who want a bass that's more transportable. That's actually not a benefit for me. Detaching the neck of my bass would make it more difficult to transport because it would take time to detach and re-attach the neck at every rehearsal and gig. It's simpler and quicker to put my bass in a bag and throw it in my car. I don't travel with my bass. Most bassists are local yokels like me.
As for repairability, that probably awaits long term trial, and engineering analysis. Are two bolts really stronger than a full neck mortise? Do we know all of the failure modes? Old basses were never engineered, but new basses could be.
For myself, I will probably never buy another bass, so the point is almost moot, and I get my fill of engineering at my day job. Playing music is where I get to hang up my engineer hat and enjoy living in another world. The idea that this ancient, cumbersome, dangerous, impossible beast can make beautiful music is part of the attraction for me.
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I'm thinking that having the option of removing the neck brings other opportunities to take the instrument when I normally would not - back to travel again, but not necessarily traveling to perform or rehearse - rather traveling for pleasure. When not in travel mode, I would leave the neck attached at all times.
There have been a lot of arguments in the guitar-making world about traditional neck joins vs bolt-ons and I think bolt-ons are much more accepted now especially since Taylor started doing them. I know a Spanish guitar maker who swears by bolt-on necks even though he was taught the good old Spanish method. From speaking to him I believe they are more stable in the long-term not to mention easier to deal with for repairs. I have a number of guitars/ukes with bolt-on necks. My Cleveland bass has a bolt-on neck and apart from being fantastic for travel I can't tell any difference compared to previous basses I've owned made with traditionally-joined necks.
You should consider getting an instrument made with all these options! I have been dabbling later in guitars and the like and have had one custom instrument made and am getting another made now. Admittedly they are smaller and cost less than a custom bass but it's really something to play around with different woods and aspects of instrument design.
John Sprague
Sam Shen's US Distributor
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