• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

WikiLeaks.

#82
""""""""""This whole "everyone who questions my authoritaaah is a terrorist" thing is akin to pointing at a stranger and shouting "WIIIIIIIIIIIIITCH!" in the middle ages."""""""""



100% for better or worse. Its the hard truth of freedom. If someone does not have anything to hide then they should not care about what is said. And this on going witch hunt only adds to Wiki's credibility. Trust me I am not picking sides. I have no desire to overturn my government, but it is nice to think that someone is keeping an eye on big brother.
 
#86
Relic said:
I just find it greatly annoying to hear someone disparage our military. I wouldn't call it unpatriotic, more so just ignorant but that's really just IMO.
Click to expand...

The military is an institution that does great and honorable things and does deplorable and unhonorable things, along with things that fall somewhere in the middle - just like most major institutions in the world. I have a problem with blindly bashing the military, but I also have a problem with deifying it and saying that it's beyond reproach. Like most things in life, it's not all that black and white.
 
#88
Doctor J said:
It wouldn't be as attention grabbing. If we're honest, I'd imagine each one of us generally expects this kind of thing from China and Russia and they've repeatedly never claimed to be land of the free to my knowledge.

This whole "everyone who questions my authoritaaah is a terrorist" thing is akin to pointing at a stranger and shouting "WIIIIIIIIIIIIITCH!" in the middle ages.

It's good to ask questions. People should ask questions more. Being able to ask questions is real freedom, being scared to or conditioned not to clearly is not, just ask anyone who lived under a communist regime in Eastern Europe.
Click to expand...

I lived in East Europe for a while - yep the folks there undoubtedly appreciate freedom far more than we do (a collective "we" as in 'western" nations) A curious aside as well - we (the US) are still viewed by many there as the "good guy" and not the root of all evil as many others elsewhere have us pegged.

However it did not stop them from questioning their gov't's, no? Questioning their governments is what brought those regimes down eventually.

At any rate - we may expect such behavior from Russia or China, but the reality is that they are also world players. You cannot pretend to know why the US does some of the things it does on a world stage until you understand just what our "competitors" do.
 
#89
"""""""""""""""Part of the problem here is that we now have people who have only part of the story drawing conclusions on partial evidence. As an example: I write an email to George stating that John is being a real a-hole about something. The email gets leaked and now John, a very sensitive fellow, believes that I think he is an a-hole. But this is not the case (we all act like a-holes at some points) and my friendship with John is irreparably damaged. """""""""""""""""

What makes you think we get the full truth from our "trusted sources"? Did we not go to war because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction?

And your friendship is repairable if you are willing to be the first to reach out and make amends.

Forget Wikileaks for a second, I think at this time in American history even more then before, we need blunt and honest people in Government. The two party system and their "choosing a side" campaign is bad for every American no matter party association.
 
#90
Let me state that I am not some flag waving supporter of the military - I consider the armed forces a necessary evil. I am also comfortable with the idea that even diplomats can write and say things that are meant only for a very select audience and that the real meanings of these "things" will not be clear to those for whom it was not intended. As was stated earlier, we also have the wikileaks group filtering the messages, which are most likely incomplete and prefiltered to some degree anyway. I do not want their take on the issues to be taken as gospel. It would seem that we have people in government who perhaps should not be there (as do other countries) and I honestly believe that this is the wrong approach to this and mostly sensationalism at the expense of the gullible.
 
#91
LiquidMidnight said:
The military is an institution that does great and honorable things and does deplorable and unhonorable things, along with things that fall somewhere in the middle - just like most major institutions in the world. I have a problem with blindly bashing the military, but I also have a problem with deifying it and saying that it's beyond reproach. Like most things in life, it's not all that black and white.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
My stance is that if someone actually KNOWS what they're talking about, then I'll listen. In regards to both honorable and dishonorable things - a military fights wars. Wars suck, NO ONE knows that as well as the soldiers who fight them, yet the freedom that's won 'aint so bad. We're all appreciating that at this very moment.
But far too many times, the military is reduced to "evil baby killers" by someone who has NO clue about past history nor what goes on in the world.
 
#92
Relic said:
Where do you think this country would be with no military?
Our military has won us our right to criticize our military :)
I guess we're saying sort of the same thing, however in my case, I just find it greatly annoying to hear someone disparage our military. I wouldn't call it unpatriotic, more so just ignorant but that's really just IMO.
Click to expand...

Bipslapper said:
Thanks Relic, you stated what I was trying to say but more to the point. I believe in questioning authority, but the soldiers don't make the polices; just doing the job they are required to do. I should have made that clear in my prior post. As I get older I grow more and more appreciation for those who sacrifice for us.
Click to expand...

I am not naive enough to believe we can exist with no military, and I do not wish them harm by any means. However, policies or no policies, they are thinking human beings and if the policy is not right and they follow orders they are still responsible.

I just cant imagine treating the military with kid gloves, why are they above criticism? I understand they have a dangerous job but that doesnt put them beyond criticism. When something is wrong it is wrong, period.
 
#94
Relic said:
Absolutely.
My stance is that if someone actually KNOWS what they're talking about, then I'll listen. In regards to both honorable and dishonorable things - a military fights wars. Wars suck, NO ONE knows that as well as the soldiers who fight them, yet the freedom that's won 'aint so bad. We're all appreciating that at this very moment.
But far too many times, the military is reduced to "evil baby killers" by someone who has NO clue about past history nor what goes on in the world.
Click to expand...

When was the last time you heard a lot of people demonizing the military? Especially after 2001. That would be suicide.
 
#95
Relic said:
Absolutely.
My stance is that if someone actually KNOWS what they're talking about, then I'll listen. In regards to both honorable and dishonorable things - a military fights wars. Wars suck, NO ONE knows that as well as the soldiers who fight them, yet the freedom that's won 'aint so bad. We're all appreciating that at this very moment.
But far too many times, the military is reduced to "evil baby killers" by someone who has NO clue about past history nor what goes on in the world.
Click to expand...

Does the end justify the means?

The military should be able to take critisism and the government shouldn't be so keen to cover up the mistakes etc etc.

The worst part about things like what has been released, is the military gets tarred with the same brush when it's generally issues caused by a tiny minority. However, IMO, people seem to be more up in arms about the manner in which the government is coddling the military and the manner in which they are approaching the whole wikileaks thing.

Not to mention US public figures/politicians claiming people should be executed for what's happened, comes across (to someone outside the US at least) as amazingly hypocritical for a country that is so big on freedoms.
 
#98
Relic said:
At any rate - we may expect such behavior from Russia or China, but the reality is that they are also world players. You cannot pretend to know why the US does some of the things it does on a world stage until you understand just what our "competitors" do.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is what you meant to say, but to me this kind of strikes me as lowering to their level. Just because some other country does something doesn't mean we should.

Nappa said:
Wouldn't something like wikileaks improve their security in the long run? Make them use more secure channels? Would they want this to happen again? What doesn't kill you will make you stronger. Or so I have been told.
Click to expand...

Possibly, possibly not. Cables have been leaked before, and they still use them because for the most part they are secure and a good way of communicating. Granted, that all may change now and people might start communicating over phone or face-to-face now, which would be the only regrettable thing about wikileaks at this point IMO.
 
#99
i_got_a_mohawk said:
Does the end justify the means?

The military should be able to take critisism and the government shouldn't be so keen to cover up the mistakes etc etc.

The worst part about things like what has been released, is the military gets tarred with the same brush when it's generally issues caused by a tiny minority. However, IMO, people seem to be more up in arms about the manner in which the government is coddling the military and the manner in which they are approaching the whole wikileaks thing.

Not to mention US public figures/politicians claiming people should be executed for what's happened, comes across (to someone outside the US at least) as amazingly hypocritical for a country that is so big on freedoms.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering where folks are getting the idea that I'm against any/all criticism of the military? I'm probably not explaining myself clearly, so here goes - I really don't think that someone criticizing the military is automatically a bad thing. Even the military criticizes the military.
My point is that there are those who will criticize and condemn who really have no friggen' idea what they're talking about. If someone's news intake consists of celebrity gossip and who's on this weeks "Dancing with the Stars" then to hear them disparage the military ("baby killers!!") when they have NO clue what goes on in the world, is quite frankly pathetic. Then there are those who will be led by expressed opinions of celebrities.... it drives me nuts. They should rather READ, LEARN, LISTEN, then comment.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back