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Wooten does it again

#21
I changed my mind. I'll take another stab at this.

I think you're getting hung up on the numbers. The statement or viewpoint, that the notes are only 10% of bass playing was I think really just to get us (you) to think about all the other aspects of playing and how just like other languages, there are other aspects besides letters and words. Without those things like tone, dynamics, space,etc the words either lose much of their impact, or mean very little.

Does this help?
 
#22
zanataza said:
Seriously? :hmm: Because I was hoping that if somebody really believed in Victor's concepts of learning, they could show me where I am twisted in my thinking. :hiding: Nobody has! Can you tell me why?

I just keep going back to the idea that the idea of Victor's approach is missing the most important thought; notes should be first because then you have a reason to use space, attitude etc. Am I wrong here? Could it be that Victor's position doesn't include music as the center of his approach. No sarcasm here. I am his biggest fan. But, maybe he doesn't focus on music enough. Please advise!

Zanz
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I think that you are putting way to much emphasis on the "other 90%". You have to crawl, then walk, before you can run. Baby steps. I'd suggest checking out the video yourself, that way there is no misunderstanding as to what he means.
 
#23
zanataza said:
Seriously? :hmm: Because I was hoping that if somebody really believed in Victor's concepts of learning, they could show me where I am twisted in my thinking. :hiding: I just keep going back to the idea that the idea of Victor's approach is missing the most important thought; you have to know about music to use these things. Am I wrong here? Please help me?

Zanz
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Here's where you're twisted...obviously Vic has learned the notes and the modes and all the other book learning stuff that goes into being a world class jazz bassist. You don't get that good without learning the notes. Nowhere has Vic ever said that you don't need to learn the notes. What he's saying is that there are many other facets of bass playing that are as important as the notes and we should worry less about "THE NOTES" than the entire package. You've become fixated on "THE NOTES." Which is fine when you're learning, but then you have to move past "THE NOTES" in order for your playing to reach emotional levels of greatness. Anyone can play notes like a robot. The other things are what makes your playing great, not the notes.

I'll use myself as an example...I am nowhere near the caliber of bassist Vic is. But I keep working steadily and people love my playing because I'll darn sure make you feel the emotions of the music when I play it. That's because I know that knowing the notes doesn't even come close to taking into consideration things like articulation, feel, and conveyance of emotion. THAT is what Vic is talking about.

Now if you ask again to have it explained, I will have to pull your musician's learner's permit for 6 months ;)
 
#24
zanataza said:
You are all wonderful guys and tried to help me. :hyper: But, I just don't see anyone answering my question which at least leads me to the thought that music isn't first here. Maybe nobody can find a problem with my thinking! Did I discover a flaw in his approach to teaching that doesn't make music as the first idea of playing? I think that this is the case which isn't a bad thing. It may just mean that some dudes didn't actually think that clearly about what was being presented.

But you are also right that I should check out his video. I will do this. Happy Thanksgiving to everybody. Thanks again for your input.

Zanz:bassist:
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no, that's not it. I haven't seen the vid yet, but did go to one of the Bass/nature camps where he talked about this a LOT. He's just trying to get people to se music from another angle... in the end, it does come back around to notes, etc.. he just wants people to focus on the OTHER things that make something musical to broaden their perspective, etc... Lots of cats play ALL the right notes and never really say anything with their instrument because of how, why and where they are playing them. Music is much more than notes..
There are only 12 notes, if it's only about notes, shouldn't music be VERY easy to master? no, because it is about much more than knowing what notes will work over a chord, etc... Check out the vid. I'm sure it's insightful.. just keep your mind open and don't presume to have it figured out and you'll gleen MUCH from it. I personally, can't wait to pick it up!
 
#28
Think about speech. Sounds and syllables are vital, but if that's all you've got it's just babble. You need words, phrases, context, inflection, etc to really speak a language. A little kid can make himself understood with very little, but as we get better all kinds of communication opens up. Notes are like that. Without notes, you've got nothing. But there's a LOT more than notes that make up music. If all you have is notes, all you've got is...well... a guitar solo.
:hiding:
 
#29
CindyB said:
Think about speech. Sounds and syllables are vital, but if that's all you've got it's just babble. You need words, phrases, context, inflection, etc to really speak a language. A little kid can make himself understood with very little, but as we get better all kinds of communication opens up. Notes are like that. Without notes, you've got nothing. But there's a LOT more than notes that make up music. If all you have is notes, all you've got is...well... a guitar solo.
:hiding:
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well put my friend -- very well put!
 
#31
Think in terms of communication. The numbers vary a little, but some studies show that with in-person communication, 7% is delivered by the words, 38% by voice quality, and 55% by non-verbal communication (facial expressions, body language, etc...)

This is not saying that words are not important, it is saying there is more to communication than just the words.

I haven't seen Vic's video, but I think the message is the same.
 
#32
zanz, i haven't read through each post here but, what vic imo actually meant in the end was not that notes are the least important he just meant that notes are over-rated as in he meant that way too much of attention is paid to the notes and not enough to the other 9 elements of music. hope this helps
 
#34
He does in fact mention the importance and role that notes have on music. He said that there are 12 notes and in any key 7 of them are the "correct" ones and that 5 of them are "wrong". Then he goes to show how if you improvise using the wrong notes, but utilize the other principals of music you can actually sound "correct" to the listener. Then he demonstrated that against playing the right notes, but with no emphasis on the other musical principals and it sounded like most of the other "note" players who just play without feeling, emotion, timing, articulation, etc. Also this was the very first demonstration on the video. He didn't say that notes were not important, but all conventional methods emphasize learning notes. He is assuming that you know some note theory and his students in the video all could at least play major scales and a little fingerboard theory and at least one two or even three of them were not bad players at all. He also admitted in the video that his own personal knowledge of music theory is not that great so he just showing what can be achieved by adding to your current knowledge and practice of music. At the end of the video he also tells you that this is no way is to disregard what you already have learned about music. I have met him many years ago and he is simply a very humble person who is very willing to share the ideas that most would consider "secrets". I was also fortunate enough long ago to learn through necessity that listening, space, feel, and other principals were more important than just playing the right notes. As you develop your note theory, you can use the other principals to make music with them.
 
#36
You are just reading the words (or notes) that the guys are saying. You have to hear the music the notes make just as you listen to to logic the words make. Notes are not facts nor statements, they are the colors used to make music and they do count for something and have importance too but bring your other principals up to where your knowledge of them are.

zanataza said:
Thanks to everyone for your input.;) From everything that I am reading, it seems that that the facts of music don't count as much as the heart of it. Right?:hmm:

Zanz:bassist:
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#37
words Notes, like, only one of are the of tools done we use context to. Even when depicted, pieces as is on all give set paper, they mess jumbled mean communicate symbolically little if we part have don’t look the value other that them meaning. If taken out of, words very and notes little meaning at or. It just appears as a.

Notes, like words, are only one part of the set of tools we use to communicate. Even when depicted symbolically, as is done on paper, they mean very little if we don’t look at the other pieces that give them meaning. If taken out of context, words and notes have little meaning or value. It all just appears as a jumbled mess.
 
#38
No one said you are supposed to learn the other principals first. I t is very common knowledge that you learn notes first when picking up an instrument. Learn you major, minor scales, modes and arpeggios and WHILE you are learning them you can incorporate these other tools. I have been doing it for over thirty years and it works wonders when developing a groove, or making music. I can make a boring major scale exercise be fun and work on five or all 10 of Victor's or even the 11-13 principles I have discovered on my own thru the years while doing so. Take you major scale and add space, articulation, feel, tempo, dynamics, etc. and see what happens.

zanataza said:
Don't you have to learn the words before you can use tone, dynamics, space,etc? If I can't speak French, how can I use space and dynamics to express my words? As for me, I don't read music well and I don't know the notes on my bass. . How do any of us who fall into my situation use tone, dynamics space, etc if we don't know music to use it.:hmm::crying:

Zanz
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#39
Perhaps some analogous situations from elsewhere in life.

The game of chess only has 6 different pieces, each with clearly defined "moves". It is easy to learn the rules of playing chess within 15 minutes. To become an excellent chess player requires a knowledge of how the pieces (notes) interact & the various moves / positions affect the end of the game, and which piece to move when (with a strategy, not just a random shuffling around the board).

Doing calisthenics is great for increasing fitness, however, you probably won't have to do a pushup or a lunge or a situp in real life. The strength you gain by doing those exercises allows you to do other activities, such as hiking or backpacking or endurance for basketball or whatever.

In math, once you know how to use addition, subtraction, multiplication, differentiation, integration, etc., you are able to use those skills (notes) to solve interesting problems that have real-world situationss attached to them (analogous to music).

Yes, you should learn the notes & your fingerboard. The quicker you learn them, the quicker you can get to a point where you can use them for something of value (creating music), not just technical exercises.

I'm looking forward to checking this video out!

ian
 
#40
zanataza said:
I agree:hyper: And this is why I am confused:hmm: If learning notes is, as you say, a given, then why did Victor put it on his list as one of the least important?

Zanz:bassist:
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+1 to DudeistMonk's comment, above. Grab a copy of The Music Lesson and it'll make Victor's point clearer.

My read of the idea is that people think of music mostly in terms of pitches (both horizontal--melody--and vertical--harmony), but there's a whole lot more to music, in the deepest sense.

I got a new (remaindered) copy of the book pretty cheap, on Amazon marketplace.
 

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