Wooten does it again

[BassSlave]

These are not just bass playing pricipals. Not all musicians, listen, have good feel, use space correctly, etc. Once you learn the basics of playing bass or any instrument, most think that's all too it and run down to the nearest music store or get gigs and show what they know. However music has very subtle qualities and some not so subtle. Sometimes playing different styles help bring out different qualities in your playing. I know that playing jazz or funk has different approaches than playing rock or classical or reggae. Sometimes just learning the notes and which ones to play doesn't get you into playing the actual idiom or style required. I know too many musicians who don't even use the "listening" concept when playing music and actually met a drummer who played with airplane runway worker headphones on so that he could hear himself better. I told him, he has no idea of what i am playing on bass so he had only a piece of the information required to play the music correctly. Listening is just as if not more important than just playing the notes, or as Jaco Pastorius used to say "wigglin' your fingers!".

I thank you all for your time to answer me Doesn't every bass player get these things once they learn how to play the bass?

Zanz

 

[Chebass88]

Doesn't every bass player get these things once they learn how to play the bass?
Zanz

Zanz, you're certainly a persistent bugger. Yes, MOST bass players get those things once they learn to play the bass, however, it can take a long time to accumulate those skills and knowledge naturally. There are a lot that don't, and you can hear them in your local bar this coming weekend. Ever hear a non-jazz player walk a jazz bass line? It sounds like S__t. They might be great players, but they need to learn the style of connecting jazz 'notes' together with space, dynamics, attitude, etc.

What IS "learning music"? If you learn a bass part, all of these various components are inherently there - notes, rhythms, space, attitude, dynamics, etc. No one sits and says "Now I shall learn dynamics". "Now I shall learn space". The message, as I understand it, is that by actively focusing on these areas, you can utilize them better in the music you create. Why spend decades learning them through osmosis when you can learn some of this stuff sooner?

ian

 

[JimmyM]

Don't you have to learn the words before you can use tone, dynamics, space,etc? If I can't speak French, how can I use space and dynamics to express my words? As for me, I don't read music well and I don't know the notes on my bass. . How do any of us who fall into my situation use tone, dynamics space, etc if we don't know music to use it.

Zanz

Now you're just being difficult on purpose. If you haven't got it by now, either you're pretending you don't get it for the attention or you never will get it. It has been explained to you over and over as well as it can be explained.

 

[JFace]

Go to bassplayertv.com, and click on artist features and then Victor Wooten. The series "Ten Elements of Music" goes over his approach.

 

[BassSlave]

Actually in the video, Victor is trying to get you to consciously work on those components. And Anthony Wellington states that you want to later make it a part of you "unconscious knowing" where you just play and not think about those things. So y9ou can say, I'm gonna practice space...and play a major scale scale in tempo, and leave little holes or spaces on different beats so you can feel the difference. He also stated this concept of learning or practicing has not really been explored so you have to devise you own exercises sometimes. So maybe you might want to think about working on playing a groove at first very soft and then gradually get louder or accenting different notes until you feel how each note operates in that groove with emphasis on different notes. Then later in your development as a musician, you can let the components come out in a natural way without thinking about them and that will breathe more life into your music. But you are very correct in that why learn them by osmosis when you have the information given to you? I wish I had a computer and the internet when I was a kid because I would have practiced more consciously on the concepts that I do on an every day basis now. I don't even call it practicing anymore.

No one sits and says "Now I shall learn dynamics". "Now I shall learn space".

ian

 

[BassSlave]

Hey Zans, A good way to think of the fingerboard and notes is just name every note, either out loud or in your head when you play it. After a while you will stop thinking about the note names and then start to associate a sound with certain notes and then all of them will be easy to remember and recall.

 

[JKT]

Jeff Berlin also said that "music solves all things". This makes sense to me.

Zanz

Okay, so this vague, esoteric statement taken out of any known context makes sense to you but the carefully thought out, cogent responses to your original query regarding a giant in the business, from collectively over a hundered years of bass playing experience left you confused and without answers?

Good luck in your journey.

 

[JFace]

Maybe you'd be better off getting the advice from Vic himself. Checkout the link I posted. bassplayertv.com ==>Artist Features ==>Victor Wooten ==>Ten Elements of Music.

 

[JimmyM]

Okay, so this vague, esoteric statement taken out of any known context makes sense to you but the carefully thought out, cogent responses to your original query regarding a giant in the business, from collectively over a hundered years of bass playing experience left you confused and without answers?

Good luck in your journey.

It's obvious what's going on here. Zanz is what they call left-brained, which is an outdated notion that the right hemisphere of the brain controls creativity functions and the left hemisphere controls logic and math functions. Jeff's "music solves all problems" is an absolute statement, which he can relate to much easier than Vic's message, which puts creativity at the forefront. So either he will have to retrain himself to think more creatively and put absolute logic to the side, or it's going to be a struggle for him to understand creative concepts of playing music. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

 

[damianerskine]

I checked out the link and I love what I heard. Victor is SO FUNKY!

But, Victor didn't talk about musical ideas to practice. I sorta have the idea that when you learn something, you learn the facts, then use them in your own way. Isn't this right? But, Victor didn't talk about musical facts, just philosophy, which might guide me, but doesn't really help me. I already know that I suck and that I need musical help.

Victor's my fave bassist. But, is he really showing good stuff to learn from? Lemme know because I am curious if I am still missing something.

Zanz

Got the video yesterday and watched all 6 hours!! It's amazing and should definitely be watched!! He gives you a TON of practical exercises to develop the concepts. It's very philosophical and very practical... Think you should definitely just get it and watch it Zanz....

 

[JimmyM]

JimmyM said, "So either he will have to retrain himself to think more creatively and put absolute logic to the side, or it's going to be a struggle for him to understand creative concepts of playing music. Sorry, but that's the way it is."

But, I wasn't talking about my need to create! I was talking about my need to learn! Isn't that what lessons and studying is about? Learning? I see that some here are talking more about creativity! But doesn't creativity take care of itself when you have the tools to be creative with?

That is the biggest flaw in thinking that logicians make when it comes to music. Everything has to be learned, including how to apply creativity to different musical situations. You don't just learn the notes and then all of a sudden you're creative. Some people it comes easier than others, but most of us have spent our lifetimes trying to learn how to apply creativity to the notes we've learned.

 

[BassSlave]

I never appreciated learning music the cut and dried methodical way of learning the basic principals in a formal setting. Although I have learned that concept and tried to teach it, I found much more success and joy in playing when I learned how to practice in a creative way. Too many times have we heard players who can play very well but in a methodical, almost predictable way. Then there comes a guy or kid, who can play in ways you have never imagined. The creative part in the player came from the way he conceptualized the basic tools and uses them to make his musical statements.

But doesn't creativity take care of itself when you have the tools to be creative with? Zanz

 

[BassSlave]

Creativity is only a component of music in itself. You still need the other ingredients. You mentioned you had an issue learning to play, so I suggest trying a more creative approach. The video doesn't stress creativity, however it is a creative way to think about the tools you will eventually need to have to make good, or better music.

 

[JimmyM]

I notice that name bass player has learned how to be creative and learned how to perform without making too big a deal about creativity as a study idea. At least this is what I get this from reading their interviews. I just don't know of any bassist who ever discussed creativity as an issue of learning how to play. Am I wrong? Who does this? Creativity just seems to be built into the learning experience. The more that I know, the more that I can create. Maybe we'ree making too big a deal out of creativity as a lesson idea??

Zanz

Talkbass is in dire need of a shoot-yourself-in-the-head smiley.

I'm starting to get a little miffed now. Dude, you know nothing about music. I'm not saying that to be insulting because you have admitted that you don't. So all of a sudden you read a few interviews and you've got it all figured out how it should be taught? All of us answering your questions know how to play music already. I play it for a living and I've done so for 30 years. Damian Erskine is a world-class player who's played with some of the biggest and best out there. So you're going to sit there and tell us that even though you don't know anything yet, you know how music should be taught better than Damian Erskine? I think not.

Here's what you do if you're truly interested in playing music...talk a LOT less and listen a LOT more.

 

[Coelho]

Hi people,

I've been to a couple of Vic's bass/nature camps and it is really a wondeful experience. I would recomend to anyone that has a chance to go.

One interesting thing he mentions is "why don't we play as well as we talk?" We probably can sing any line, or at least imagine any melody. Why can't we play it?
Why can we speak so easily, sometimes in different languages, and yet we can't play as fluently?

He says that one of the main differences is jamming. That since we were born we have been jamming with the masters in spoken language, the adults! We practice it more than anything else. And we practice with the masters.

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[JimmyM]

I apologize to JimmyM for miffing him. If you are a working musician for 30 years, may I ask what kind of jobs you play?

Sure you can...most of my work these days is playing oldies shows with a lot of the original acts from the 50's and 60's. I also do a lot of sub work around Orlando playing a ton of different styles, plus I do a small amount of studio work writing, recording, and producing music for hire. I also write charts such as horn and string arrangements.

Anyway, sorry to get miffed...you seem like a nice guy, but you just can't go making assumptions about learning how to play music without knowing anything about it.

 

[smeet]

I notice that name bass player has learned how to be creative and learned how to perform without making too big a deal about creativity as a study idea. At least this is what I get this from reading their interviews. I just don't know of any bassist who ever discussed creativity as an issue of learning how to play. Am I wrong? Who does this? Creativity just seems to be built into the learning experience. The more that I know, the more that I can create. Maybe we'ree making too big a deal out of creativity as a lesson idea??
Zanz

Don't stress about this... It's very simple - everything should be in service of the MUSIC. The instrument and associated techniques are only useful inasmuch as they help you to produce that music.

Did you watch the trailer? About 1 minute in, Victor states this: In music (as in all lanuguage) the main thing is to have something to say. The instrument and methods used to convey that message are secondary.

Go ahead and practice your scales and licks. Just use them in service of the music, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND...

 

[JimmyM]

Apology accepted! How did you learn how to play?

Zanz

Part of it was natural ability, but when that wasn't cutting it, I took lessons from those who knew more than me, and I listened to what they had to say because they knew more than me.

 

[BassSlave]

Zanz, Don't worry too much about miffing anyone. You are just trying to get an understanding for yourself. JimmyM could have used a little more creativity in giving you the best advice so far. Talk less and listen more. I also give that advice to guys and include to play more. Not notes, but play more of what they are talking about with their mouths. Try to convey your thoughts, even your frustrations or negative ideas if you don't have any positive ones, but do it with your music and you will start to answer your own questions. I too, have been working for 32 years professionally but not the quickest when it comes to learning new concepts, I know you need to come to your own realization of what people are suggesting here. I agree with JimmyM that a shoot the head smiley is a creative way to show you that you are not catching on to the discussion. Vic states in the video a lesson that someone told him very creatively to stop playing a lot of notes and play more rests, or less in other words. So this proves there are creative ways to learn things and play music. Yes, someone can say to us "shut the *##@ up and play the bass!" or "you know, if you stop playing so much, maybe a little music will fall out". Which do you prefer to hear? I've been told told both ways and after a while it doesn't matter how someone expresses it, just make sure you understand the lesson or the idea and you will go far in your music.

I apologize to JimmyM for miffing him. If you are a working musician for 30 years, may I ask what kind of jobs you play?

Zanz

 

[CindyB]

But, I wasn't talking about my need to create! I was talking about my need to learn! Isn't that what lessons and studying is about? Learning? I see that some here are talking more about creativity! But doesn't creativity take care of itself when you have the tools to be creative with?

I just don't know of any bassist who ever discussed creativity as an issue of learning how to play. Am I wrong? Who does this? Creativity just seems to be built into the learning experience. The more that I know, the more that I can create.

I always thought creativity was the whole POINT. Like speaking is the point of learning a language. Focusing on the alphabet won't help you tell someone you love them. Wooten is telling you to look beyond the notes on the fretboard and get your focus on the other elements of music. Reading "The Music Lesson" would really help you to understand this. It's not an expensive book and it's a pretty quick read. Yes, it's kind of "spacy" at times, but it goes places no other book on the bass (or music in general) that I've ever read goes. It opened these other elements up to me in a way "traditional" teaching methods never have. In particular, putting my focus on the concept of "space" has completely changed the way I play. I don't want to sound like some sort of cultist or anything. Don't throw out your metronome or your mode books, but don't make them the focal point of your playing either.