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Zon basses - is everything OK ?

#1,421
Fuzzbass said:
No offense, but you're clearly not. Neither am I, but this was a regular point of discussion in the Darrin Huff warning thread (some now waiting >20 years), and a number of those waiting did consult lawyers over that lengthy time period. Lawsuits never happened because the common legal advice was "your best bet is to take him to small claims court". That's a crapshoot at best, and even if the court sides with the plaintiff, additional legal action will likely be required to force the defendant to pay up. There quickly comes a point where the high level of effort and mediocre of success just ain't worth the $2500 (or whatever) deposit.
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Not disagreeing with that, and pretty much stated the same thing....I'm familiar with court/lawyer costs/time costs/aggravation costs, etc. when it comes to legal action. So I get it if someone would rather just chalk it up to "hard lesson learned" ...then again they may wish to persue it legally regardless of those hurdles. What Zon did IS illegal (and one doesn't have to be a lawyer to understand breaking the law...we all know theft and fraud when we see it) or ethical.

Personally, I'd be demanding my money back at this point from Zon, instead of waiting for them to suddenly make good on the bass, and at least threatening legal action for fraud and breach of contract (the threat of legal action often works both ways, Zon may decide it wouldn't be worth getting sued over the money owed, and make good instead of risking legal fees). It's obvious that just pleading and begging with them, or exposing their lies and bad business here, isn't working. But that's just me, I've experienced fraud and theft, so am probably more apt to pursue restitution than others.
 
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#1,422
younggun said:
Personally, I'd be demanding my money back at this point from Zon, instead of waiting for them to suddenly make good on the bass, and at least threatening legal action for fraud and breach of contract (the threat of legal action often works both ways, Zon may decide it wouldn't be worth getting sued over the money owed, and make good instead of risking legal fees). It's obvious that just pleading and begging with them, or exposing their lies and bad business here, isn't working. But that's just me, I've experienced fraud and theft, so am probably more apt to pursue restitution than others.
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Do not assume that no one is asking for refunds. Years ago a friend of mine did, but Zon always replied that there was no need, there were some complications but his bass would be ready soon (very long story short: it wasn't).

Also, I'm curious: what specific legal action would you take? Which entity has jurisdiction? "I'm going to talk to my lawyer!" is a toothless threat. Zon has a lawyer, too.
 
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#1,425
Matt-J2 said:
Just out of curiosity, what does Zon require for orders?

Looking at the website you can fill out a custom form but then you have to contact them, and I couldn't find it stated anywhere if there was a nominal fee to get a place in line, or X% down, or how they deal with that. I might have missed it if is there.

I haven't dealt with this style of builder for much. The places I have dealt with(non-instrument) had a deposit ($200-$300), then they contact you to finalise details when your turn comes up, then they get to work. It's been a while but I recall more money changing hands at that point.
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When I ordered my bass 3 years ago, I had to pay a 25% deposit. The rest was due when it was done.
 
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#1,428
younggun said:
The OP said he was originally quoted at 8 months lead time I believe. Now, is that a "contract"? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be inclined to think a court would say it is. But even if there isn't a specific signed contract; a business can't promise a product, then hold on to a customer's money until the end of time and never deliver the product. Going by the OP's posts, he was in contact with ZON several times over the years, and at multiple points Zon told him that they would be starting on his build "very soon" (I'm paraphrasing) yet they never have. Material statements (statements that relate to fact) that are made falsely, are condisdered fraud. Lies of omission are also considered fraud.. Zon knows it can take them many years to finish builds. They know that a normal customer would never have any expectation to wait 7 years (or worse, indefinitely) for something that was supposed to take 8 months. Unless they related an "indefinite wait time" to the customer up front, that's a lie of omission.
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Yes, of course. ZON is being dishonest in this situation. In any case, 7 years is a very long time. I think they are just playing their game with the client. A lawsuit will do some good, but will the cost of a lawsuit be less than the price of this order?
 
#1,429
Fuzzbass said:
Do not assume that no one is asking for refunds. Years ago a friend of mine did, but Zon always replied that there was no need, there were some complications but his bass would be ready soon (very long story short: it wasn't).

Also, I'm curious: what specific legal action would you take? Which entity has jurisdiction? "I'm going to talk to my lawyer!" is a toothless threat. Zon has a lawyer, too.
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Just to clarify, I never assumed people weren't asking for refunds... I said they should DEMAND one and threaten or take legal action. Also in the case of the OP, I don't recall seeing a post saying he had asked for a refund (I could have missed it though, it's a long thread at this point).

Specific legal action that I'D take? For starters, I would threaten with reporting a criminal action before even considering civil. Knowledgably misrepresenting material facts (which the OP has demonstrated Zon did on multiple occasions), with the intent to keep a customers money, is a crime, specifically fraud. Zon is based in California, so that would be one jurisdiction for a criminal case. I would probably even contact the local D.A. to start. For interest's sake I looked it up....In California, if the alleged fraud is over $950, the defendant can be charged with a felony. The penalties could be up to 8 years in jail and up to $10K in fines. California is actually known for being pretty strict on fraud and DA's often pursue even small cases. Legal action with criminal penalties often get people's attention much more that threats of civil suits. My intent would be to get Zon to refund my money and then drop the matter, but if they didn't, I would follow through on the threat and make the criminal complaint.
Again this is just me, you asked what I'd do.

As an aside, I'm a little confused....is Zon a company that can afford lawyers on retainer, or is it a tiny local business with a shoestring budget, no cash flow, and no assets worth pursuing? It seems there are some contradictory perceptions and/or assumptions here.

Edit: California also has a "theft by false pretenses" law. In essence, the act of convincing someone to voluntarily give you their property, by telling them something that isn’t true, or making a promise that won’t be kept (sound familiar). It's considered theft, even though you didn't take something against another's will, and is a criminally prosecutable act.
 
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#1,430
younggun said:
As an aside, I'm a little confused....is Zon a company that can afford lawyers on retainer, or is it a tiny local business with a shoestring budget, no cash flow, and no assets worth pursuing? It seems there are some contradictory perceptions and/or assumptions here.
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That's a solid question and point.

All I can say is, after reading the entire Huff thread, if I never have to see the "blood from a stone" cliche again that'd be just fine.
 
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#1,431
younggun said:
As an aside, I'm a little confused....is Zon a company that can afford lawyers on retainer, or is it a tiny local business with a shoestring budget, no cash flow, and no assets worth pursuing? It seems there are some contradictory perceptions and/or assumptions here.
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It's basically 3 guys in a little shop. I highly doubt they retain a lawyer.
 
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#1,432
Something about this thread just doesn't add up to me. I don't doubt there are a few cases of frustrated customers with excessively long waits, but they certainly can't cash flow a business based on taking deposits and never delivering basses... They get paid by finishing instruments. I doubt they're getting thousands of orders to the point that they can sustain themselves on deposits without ever building basses.
 
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#1,434
dhagopian said:
Something about this thread just doesn't add up to me. I don't doubt there are a few cases of frustrated customers with excessively long waits, but they certainly can't cash flow a business based on taking deposits and never delivering basses... They get paid by finishing instruments. I doubt they're getting thousands of orders to the point that they can sustain themselves on deposits without ever building basses.
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I don't think that's in question. But, judging by the evidence and experiences in this thread, it's not a question that they've engaged in some unethical business with some customers. Why they would do that with some but not others, is an unanswered question, and we will probably never get an answer to that.
I just know I'd never engage them for business.
 
#1,436
younggun said:
For starters, I would threaten with reporting a criminal action before even considering civil. Knowledgably misrepresenting material facts (which the OP has demonstrated Zon did on multiple occasions), with the intent to keep a customers money, is a crime, specifically fraud. Zon is based in California, so that would be one jurisdiction for a criminal case. I would probably even contact the local D.A. to start.
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Are you actually a lawyer?
Because the costs involved in pursuing this as a criminal action are far more than the cost of that bass. Many lawyers wouldn't even touch this because they can pretty much see there is no money to be had. So what if you win? How will you collect from an entity that has no money? So even if you succeed, you'll be out for the cost of the bass AND out for all the money of litigating in criminal court. Are you prepared to sell your house to settle that debt to the courts?

Contract law? Good luck. Contracts and the laws surrounding them are notoriously vague... for a reason. ANYTHING in a contract can be argued, you just need the money to argue.

The DA won't do anything... this is really peanuts compared to the kinds of things they really focus on.
I touched on this issue earlier. You can't draw blood from a stone.
 
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#1,437
The wisest response on this thread, sorry I don’t remember who said it, is never pay the full price upfront on a custom build, if things go south for the builder he has more of a incentive to finish the builds that still have money owed to him and not one that he will not receive any more income from, it sucks and is unfair to the customer who would expect the opposite but when a business is struggling for cash flow that’s the only thing they care about, income to keep the doors open.
 
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#1,438
dhagopian said:
Something about this thread just doesn't add up to me. I don't doubt there are a few cases of frustrated customers with excessively long waits, but they certainly can't cash flow a business based on taking deposits and never delivering basses... They get paid by finishing instruments. I doubt they're getting thousands of orders to the point that they can sustain themselves on deposits without ever building basses.
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As noted, Zon is not Darrin Huff. All indications are that Zon completes most orders on time (more or less). Unfortunately, any orders that develop complications get shelved for the really long haul. This isn't "fair" per se, we can all agree that businesses should run a FIFO queue, but the strategy does make sense for a business struggling with cash flow: the entire production line isn't slowed just to handle a few highly problematic orders.

As we've seen, some very-late orders have been delivered -- I think Angus got his after 6 years?

Again: this is explanation, not justification.
 
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#1,439
frankie5string said:
Are you actually a lawyer?
Because the costs involved in pursuing this as a criminal action are far more than the cost of that bass. Many lawyers wouldn't even touch this because they can pretty much see there is no money to be had. So what if you win? How will you collect from an entity that has no money? So even if you succeed, you'll be out for the cost of the bass AND out for all the money of litigating in criminal court. Are you prepared to sell your house to settle that debt to the courts?

Contract law? Good luck. Contracts and the laws surrounding them are notoriously vague... for a reason. ANYTHING in a contract can be argued, you just need the money to argue.

The DA won't do anything... this is really peanuts compared to the kinds of things they really focus on.
I touched on this issue earlier. You can't draw blood from a stone.
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Lots of assumptions and wrong statements there, many that I've already addressed if you go back and read my posts, so I'm sorry, not going to really bother re-typing it all again in a different form. Pretty much beating a dead horse at this point.
Hoping the best for a good resolution, or at least some kind of resolution, for the OP though.
 
#1,440
younggun said:
Lots of assumptions and wrong statements there, many that I've already addressed if you go back and read my posts, so I'm sorry, not going to really bother re-typing it all again in a different form. Pretty much beating a dead horse at this point.
Hoping the best for a good resolution, or at least some kind of resolution, for the OP though.
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Would it be easier to understand if I told you you were just wrong about pretty much everything you wrote? ;-)
 
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