Zoom MS-60B announced... at last

[Shardik]

To follow up on my earlier posts, I did a little test this evening. Here's a link to a short clip of the continuous background high-pitched whine I am getting on my unit on some patches. Other TB'ers have described a similar issue with their units:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

That is really annoying. I use the recommended original Zoom PSU, and have no such noise.

 

[khutch]

However, as the MS60-B only uses two AA batteries, to provide the necessary headroom it is almost certain that some kind of switch-mode power supply is being used to increase the supply rail voltage from the nominal 3V provided by the batteries.

I suspect that this switch-mode PSU is the culprit; either the switching noise being generated by the power supply is not being filtered adequately and is appearing on the supply rails, or it is being radiated by the PSU and picked up by the analogue circuitry. In either case it is unlikely a firmware update would help much.

I think it has to have a switching supply to be able to run off 3, 5, or 9V. I would hope that the Zoom engineers are smart enough to NOT run a switcher for an audio device at 5.5kHz!! My guess is that it is running well above the audio range but aliasing and other digital processes are letting it appear in the audio range. If the coupling from switcher to audio is radiated then some user applied shielding might fix the problem but that is a big can of worms for users without electronics labs to tackle. I can't say that I have noticed it on my unit but that may only mean that I have not listened carefully enough. It is not terribly easy to hear in your sound clip. I can't hear it when listening straight on, I have to turn my head to one side or the other and listen with one ear. Almost like it is coming through both channels but out of phase between left and right.

 

[Jeremy Morgan]

I can't hear it when listening straight on, I have to turn my head to one side or the other and listen with one ear. Almost like it is coming through both channels but out of phase between left and right.

Yes, I had noticed that too when listening back to the clip on my system. The file is actually mono, so I guess it must just be cancellation at certain positions when listening with two speaker sources.

 

[Ricky Caboverde]

Hi guys, I'm considering the MS-60b for the overdrives and odd fx that I would barely use but grateful to have available when needed.

I do however have a question for those who use the compressor on the 60b...
Just how good is it? Is it just as good as a high-end comp pedal or is it still necessary to get a stand alone Diamond, FEA, etc...

 

[Jc575]

The compressors are definitely usable! I would just pick one up and give it a try. If you're not happy with the comp, u can always pick up a standalone pedal.

 

[liveburning274]

Just used the Hartke amp sim today in a live FOH set for 2 hours. The sound tech, the team and me(!) loved it. I was clear and present in the mix with almost no EQ needed from the board.

+1 for this pedal!

 

[Syxz_ML]

Woooooo this is a huge thread. Went through the first 10 pages and got plenty of GAS. Worked my way backwards for a few pages from the end of this thread and still couldn't find the anwser I'm looking for so am just going to pose a question.

I'm intrigued in the differnt modulation effects this has and will try them against my dedicated pedals I own, but I've yet to purchase a dedicated tremolo pedal and was in the market for one. How are the tremolo's on this unit? How far is the speed range? Can you get super choppy, almost square wave-ish? If it's good enough to be my dedicated tremolo as well as other uses, I need one ASAP. Thanks for any responses

 

[jumblemind]

There's only one trem pedal out of the box, and it's more leslie like, not much of a chop. The benefit of the 60b, though, is that you can add other effects to approximate what you are missing in an individual pedal model. You could combine the trem with a z synth (there are several pedals that have square wave options), for example. Zoom is supposedly adding more effects in a firmware update, too, but i haven't checked lately.

 

[Syxz_ML]

There's only one trem pedal out of the box, and it's more leslie like, not much of a chop. The benefit of the 60b, though, is that you can add other effects to approximate what you are missing in an individual pedal model. You could combine the trem with a z synth (there are several pedals that have square wave options), for example. Zoom is supposedly adding more effects in a firmware update, too, but i haven't checked lately.

Well the possiblities are still endless so I'll see what I can do with it. Thanks for the feedback. It's funny before yesterday I had never heard of this pedal. Now I can't wait till payday to buy it haha

 

[gregmon79]

Well the possiblities are still endless so I'll see what I can do with it. Thanks for the feedback. It's funny before yesterday I had never heard of this pedal. Now I can't wait till payday to buy it haha

At least it won't dent your wallet too bad. Check out the 70CDR too. If you want more modulation, delay and or chorus effects, that's the ticket. Great pedal.

 

[johnk_10]

after reading about how pleased a lot people are with it, my MS60B just arrived today. IMO, it's a very good pedal, well worth the selling price, and all of the sounds that it gets are good. it's not quite as 'organic' sounding as my analog pedals but I haven't been able to get a bad sound out of it yet. I like it ALOT more than my source audio soundblox Pro multiwave bass distortion, and the SA cost more than twice as much.

 

[gregmon79]

Coming from jonhK10, IMO, this is saying A LOT about this pedal. All the awesome stuff I've seen you turn out John and the craftsmanship and what I've heard on your soundcloud, this is, again IMO, as good as if not the best testimonial you'll ever get from this pedal. Plus I have a 60b and totally agree with everything you said.

 

[Pimmsley]

Hi guys, I'm considering the MS-60b for the overdrives and odd fx that I would barely use but grateful to have available when needed.

I do however have a question for those who use the compressor on the 60b...
Just how good is it? Is it just as good as a high-end comp pedal or is it still necessary to get a stand alone Diamond, FEA, etc...

A few peeps here have mentioned the 60B comps vs diamond, mxr etc.. Very favourably.

Since I got my 60B I now use the 160 comp patch as an always on effect (it's that good) and I tend to put it in front of most chained effect patches I create.

Hope that helps some...

Sorry guys I'm yet to record a sample in protools to check for digital debris/noise.... Recording a voice over today so will deff report back the results...

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I think it has to have a switching supply to be able to run off 3, 5, or 9V.

...My guess is that it is running well above the audio range but aliasing and other digital processes are letting it appear in the audio range.

I think guessing about this is a waste of time. Earlier in the thread, it was obvious that the majority of users were ignoring the factory recommendation for a 9V power supply at 500ma. Some were claiming "success" running the pedal at 100ma.

Same deal over on the B3 thread. There's a scattering of complaints, all from people using notoriously quirky USB power. No complaints from those using the provided wall wart.

This thing is a miniature computer with far more processing power than a second or third generation Line 6 POD, and people are trying to power it like it's a two-transistor analog fuzz pedal. Gee, I wonder why it's noisy?

 

[a_ribbon]

This thing is a miniature computer with far more processing power than a second or third generation Line 6 POD, and people are trying to power it like it's a two-transistor analog fuzz pedal. Gee, I wonder why it's noisy?

 

[johnk_10]

the current meter on my benchtop power supply says that it's pulling 130ma at idle, so i'd recommend at least a 200ma power supply for it.

 

[Pimmsley]

I think guessing about this is a waste of time. Earlier in the thread, it was obvious that the majority of users were ignoring the factory recommendation for a 9V power supply at 500ma. Some were claiming "success" running the pedal at 100ma.

Same deal over on the B3 thread. There's a scattering of complaints, all from people using notoriously quirky USB power. No complaints from those using the provided wall wart.

This thing is a miniature computer with far more processing power than a second or third generation Line 6 POD, and people are trying to power it like it's a two-transistor analog fuzz pedal. Gee, I wonder why it's noisy?

Actually Steve, Khutch makes a pretty valid point, and could be onto the source of the digital noise that is causing the problem... In being able to run/operate at the three different supply voltages 3V batts ,5V usb and 9V DC in (regardless of supplied current) the power circuit would have to either have a switching suppy or run at a very low voltage and apply voltage drops... my guess would also be a switching supply, and if as Khutch said it's doing this at an audible frequecy..
we are stuffed !

If you have ever put a recording device anywhere near a PC which is a multi frequecy transmitter of emf lol (or may as well be) you know exactly what i mean...

Noise from the power supply somes in the form of AC ripple in the DC voltage supplied and can have adverse effects... Often the recommended supplies provide enough current and minimal ripple to avoid noise in the audio path... noisy suppy = noisy audio path in general.

so even on batteries a switching power supply has the potential to leak high frequency noise into the audio path of a device... sorry to blather on, but it actually makes a lot of sense. hmmmm...

EDIT: In similar way that harmonic overtones on a bass work, a switching supplies operating frequency could induce noise at multiples (greater or less) of that frequency. I am still to test my 60B through pro tools and cans to see if I'm getting any of this noise... no digital noise that I can tell through my rig.

 

[khutch]

I think guessing about this is a waste of time.

Well, my guesses are based on nearly 40 years experience as an engineer working with switching power supplies and sampled data systems much of that time. They are also based the behavior reported here for internal battery versus 9V power. So, call them educated guesses. If someone here wants to buy me a new MS-60B I can do a teardown analysis on the one I have and remove the speculation....

I'm guessing (again!) that I won't get any takers on that. However I did do a careful listening test on my MS-60B tonight using headphones and I could not hear any hint of the noise on either battery or USB power (and USB is a recommended power source), but maybe it is just my 60-something ears. When I get the time I can hook up my PicoScope in FFT mode and see if I get the same result as Jeremy, was it?, got. The reason we suspect switching power supply noise is that a switcher has to work harder to supply a given amount of power from a 3V source than a 9V and therefore the noise should be worse at 3V, exactly as reported.

 

[scotch]

I've put in a warranty repair request for my unit. I'll report back if it gets fixed.

Mine exhibits noise regardless of battery power or dc adapter (I've been using a 1700ma OneSpot).

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I've put in a warranty repair request for my unit. I'll report back if it gets fixed.

Mine exhibits noise regardless of battery power or dc adapter (I've been using a 1700ma OneSpot).

Deleted my last post because it came across as a rant, and I want to help people who are having noise problems, rather than have a debate.

In my day gig as a diagnostic technician, I constantly run into lay people who put up with the most appalling technical problems. Quite often, by the time they report it, it's too late to solve the problem to their satisfaction. They're not negligent, it happens because they make the assumption that "stuff just works that way".

If you are experiencing an unreasonable amount of noise from an MS-60B, don't just suffer with it. Do like Scotch, and take active, practical steps to solve the problem.

You don't have to be a technician to do the following:

1. Ignore all the pages of TB talk about this. Other people are having a noiseless MS-60B experience, and you need to find out what's going on with YOUR unit before your warranty expires.

2. Examine your power source:
- Ditch the batteries- this is not a practical way to power this device under gigging conditions, given the advertised battery life.
- Ditto for USB, for a number of reasons.
- Do you have anything else plugged into your AC adapter, and are you using a daisy-chain cable? If so, simplify your DC power supply down to just three pieces- your adapter, a single connecting cable, and the MS-60B.

3. Examine your signal chain:
- Do you get the noise when the MS-60B is in active bypass (no effects selected), or only when an effect is selected?
- All effects, or just some?
- Is your pedal in a board?
- What happens if you re-do your signal wiring to bypass everything else?
- What happens if you leave it in place, but bypass the pedal board power supply, running the MS-60B off a suitably-sized AC adapter?
- What happens if you physically move it off the board, to avoid possible interference from other pedals?

4. If you can, conduct some simple A/B testing:
a.) Go to a store that has an MS-60B and/or at least one variety of 9V 500Ma single-output AC adapter. Aside from Zoom, Boss has a 500ma version of their 9V adapter called the PSA-120S, and there are others.

b.) Mix and match between your stuff and the store stock. See if there's a common element, ie; both pedals are noisy with your AC adapter, the noise goes away with either their pedal or one of their adapters...

5. If your MS-60B is clearly faulty, exchange it or make a warranty claim.

6. If all else fails, when you report the problem on here, at least give us enough data to work with:
- Serial number of your unit, so we can try to determine if there's a manufacturing batch issue.
- Model number and electrical info off the back of your AC adapter.
- Detail about your DC wiring- is it adapter straight into the pedal, or is there a wiring buss or daisy chain cable involved.
- Detail about which patches cause the noise.
- Detail about your signal chain- Active bass vs passive, single coils vs humbuckers, does it happen with certain pickup combos or other pedals, etc.