Accugroove site update.....

[Moo]

Is there any fact that could shake your faith? Of course not, it wouldn't be faith then but not everyone is happy with just believing they work as advertised. Everything scientific says it's a fraud, no demonstration of any kind that it works have come from it's supporters besides conjecture, hypotheticals and blind faith. Claims of being awarded patent pending status and the patent process will prove if it works implies they don't even know what they're talking about in regards to the patent process.

Your complaints about being crucified are hysterical IMHO.

It would be trivial and would not interfere with any patents real or imagined to simply have Mark perform his own impedance sweep and release that.

Hasn't Mark replaced an amp that blew because of this? Isn't that rather suggestive?

 

[greenboy]

Wishful thinking would say the switch works, or that at least it MIGHT work. But tests at Bass Player mag, here, and elsewhere, have shown differently. Cabs with the Accuswitch are in effect 4-ohm cabs. If you have an amp that doesn't shut right down or fry right up when it's presented with a load below its recommended limit you can pretend the switch is actually doing something. But at least one person has publicly mentioned that it took his amp out of commission.

But hey -believe what you want contrary to all evidence - science and those pesky people with qualified backgrounds don't matter. What have engineers and educated people ever done for users of electronics anyway? ; }

 

[Shoreline_gold]

Wishful thinking would say the switch works, or that at least it MIGHT work. But tests at Bass Player mag, here, and elsewhere, have shown differently. Cabs with the Accuswitch are in effect 4-ohm cabs. If you have an amp that doesn't shut right down or fry right up when it's presented with a load below its recommended limit you can pretend the switch is actually doing something. But at least one person has publicly mentioned that it took his amp out of commission.

But hey -believe what you want contrary to all evidence - science and those pesky people with qualified backgrounds don't matter. What have engineers and educated people ever done for users of electronics anyway? ; }

I agree that the science is there. The acmeswitch article and the testing prove that it cant be switched from an 4 ohm to a 8 ohm cabinet. All the arguements stating that the switch does not work are based on that premise. What bothers me is that the switch has been declared a fraud, based soley on the idea that the switch is supposed to change the ohm load of the cabinet from 4 to 8. I don't recall any info an Accugroove actually saying that is what it does, but have seen other sources assuming that is what it does. Accugroove may have put 4 and 8 ohms on the switch and on the specs to simplify things, and we assumed that they were literal. What if the switch is designed to work in another way. If I remember right, the testing did show a difference in the low htz range. Maybe this is the affect the switch is supposed to have. Unless someone can show that Accugroove actually said the switch changes the ohm load of the cabinet, the acmeswitch arguement is totally moot. If someone can show that Accugroove DID state that it changes the ohm load of the cab, then I will be convinced.

 

[Moo]

Accugroove has made many claims the switch changes a 4 ohm cab to an 8 ohm cab. In interviews and in advertisements and on his website.

But I like the part about not taking the 4 - 8 labeling literally and not trying to decide what they meant by that That's good stuff!

Maybe Mark was going to tell us how the switch worked and why we can't detect it's effects with lab equipment but the Pentagon stopped him because it would compromise the war on terror? I mean how do we know for sure that didn't happen?

But since you're new to this discussion I'll fill you in, all the he didn't really mean it would switch the impedance from 4 to 8 ohms stories have been tried.

 

[Shoreline_gold]

I pulled this off of the dudpit. It seems to blend in well with the test results from other sources:

Being totally on the side of physics and not wanting to add to that thread, another issue that has been COMPLETELY neglected is that amps stay stable by employing feedback from the cabinet back into their output stage. If you raise the ultra low frequency impedance, as BP AND Accugroove both agree the switch does at sub-bass frequencies, you'll significantly increase the feedback to the output devices, regardless if the actual impedance has changed or not. Increasing feedback, which would occur from higher impedance near DC, would keep an amp more stable AND reduce its output power, so a s/s amp would put out roughly the same amount of wattage at 4 ohms that it does at 8 ohms and AG's claims would be accurate.


Moo, I am new to this, but I do know that misassupmtions can run wild in a discussion, especially when the topic of the discussion does not respond. Could you please give me some links so I can read these interviews myself? I still ove my Tri210L, whether the switch works or not.

 

[Moo]

Do you find it ridiculous to argue the switch could be working while at the same time arguing the switch doesn't even claim to work for what you're arguing it could be doing? It's got a bit of a Groucho Marx feel

Go get the March 2006 issue of Bass Guitar, turn to page 55 and read in the Accugroove ad "4 to 8 ohms selectable impedance switch". The claim has been made many times, search the forum for many other examples but the currently running ads should be enough for most people to see that the 4 to 8 claim comes from Accugroove and not bad people trying to crucify them.

 

[greenboy]

Here come the flat-earthers and the hollow-earthers. Pass out the tin-foil hats.

 

[Thunderfunk]

What I understand the switch is still not at all cleared up. I have read that accugroove is seeking a patent on it. I know of a few people from other thread's that were related to accugroove's claim on the switch defended him but not nearly as the one's trying to crucify him. I would wait. What I hear is they are still working on the patent and if all is good they will, at least I would think, reuse the switch in there cabinets. Now this will get a few of you upset and again there will be another 100 reasons why it doesn't, and couldn't and impossible to work. But as the owner of thunderfunk clearly fought for them and I respect that, stated that they are working on a patent. Some say that does not matter even if they get a patent. But I am hoping all will go right with Accugroove as to my ears they are one of the best sounding cabinets available. I have the Whoopo Jr. and I tried many many cabinets before buying it and I am still in love with its tone. Great sound and made well. Again wait and see what will happen. I am sure Accugrove will tell you if the switch does or does not work when the patent and its results are cleared. I take it that Accugroove will not make any statements until the results are final.

You are absolutely right. The guys who are complaining about the AccuSwitch don't even own AccuGroove cabinets. This whole story has been hyped by disgruntled competitors. AccuGroove can't defend themselves because their patent hasn't issued yet. If they disclose how it works their application is void.

And to those who say that it doesn't REALLY change the impedance miss the point. My "The Switch" doesn't REALLY change from a SS to a tube rectifier. It just sounds like it does. So now we'll see posts that they opened up my amp and didn't find a tube inside! hahahahahaha I've had many comments that my amps sound warm like tubes, but don't lose definition. Sam Bollé even prefers my amp over his SVT. So how do the technical types explain that? Fraud?

 

[Bassist30]

Do you find it ridiculous to argue the switch could be working while at the same time arguing the switch doesn't even claim to work for what you're arguing it could be doing? It's got a bit of a Groucho Marx feel

Go get the March 2006 issue of Bass Guitar, turn to page 55 and read in the Accugroove ad "4 to 8 ohms selectable impedance switch". The claim has been made many times, search the forum for many other examples but the currently running ads should be enough for most people to see that the 4 to 8 claim comes from Accugroove and not bad people trying to crucify them.

Moo who cares what others have said on the threads. Why do you get so defensive by rediculing what others have said in AG's defense. Let it be. If the patent comes back and states it does work what will you say then? I take it that according to you, that there will never be anything that can change 4 ohms to 8 and 8 back to 4 ohms.

You also stated "Claims of being awarded patent pending status and the patent process will prove if it works implies they don't even know what they're talking about in regards to the patent process."

I guess you can get a patent for something that doesn't work!
Like the owner of Thunderfunk stated "Do you think patents get issued for things that don't work? You can't get a patent on theory alone. In order to get a patent you have to demonstrate that the thing works. You even have to build one. But you ignore my question. Why would a company commit fraud and then call attention to it by applying for a federal patent? Logic doesn't seem to be on your side. "


You also stated "Do you find it ridiculous to argue the switch could be working while at the same time arguing the switch doesn't even claim to work for what you're arguing it could be doing? It's got a bit of a Groucho Marx feel "

Eventhough it was not me saying that you think you are not ridiculing? or making fun of ?

This thread has been beating a dead horse. I got better things to do and going to stay out of this thread. But all I can say in confidence is that they make a great product and if the patent claims it can do what it was originally meant to do, Good for them. They made a great product even better. I say lets leave this dead horse alone.

 

[greenboy]

Thunderfunk,

It would be the way of a smart business person t if you didn't drag your product down with your rants. Defending a friend is one thing. Defending a faulty product feature with non-relevant and poorly chosen analogies is quite another.

In the long run you are probably not helping Mark any either, and though I won't say never it's certainly made more than a few people including me wonder whether it would be smart to buy your product, for two reasons:

1) If you are that out of touch with the electronics principles involves in the Accuswitch controversy how the hell did you ever make an amp?

2) Or is it an issue of misplaced loyalty versus essential honesty.

I really don't want to think that porrly of Thunderfunk products, but when the owner is raving like a looney with conspiracy theories and can't see the science for what it is...

 

[BassIan]

You are absolutely right. The guys who are complaining about the AccuSwitch don't even own AccuGroove cabinets. This whole story has been hyped by disgruntled competitors. AccuGroove can't defend themselves because their patent hasn't issued yet. If they disclose how it works their application is void.

And to those who say that it doesn't REALLY change the impedance miss the point. My "The Switch" doesn't REALLY change from a SS to a tube rectifier. It just sounds like it does. So now we'll see posts that they opened up my amp and didn't find a tube inside! hahahahahaha I've had many comments that my amps sound warm like tubes, but don't lose definition. Sam Bollé even prefers my amp over his SVT. So how do the technical types explain that? Fraud?

As one of the people who has "compain[ed]", I must state that I do own an Accugroove cabinet. You are making a completely false assumption and it shows that your are no longer thinking with anything but emotion regarding this topic. As a representative of a business, you need to pull back and take a look at reality. As I've said before to you, you *build amps* and as such should have an intimate knowledge of impedance. Thus you will find with the evidence before you that the switch not only *does not* but *CAN not* do what has been repeatedly claimed. Technical types probably haven't cared to, but surely you know the technical explanation for why your amplifiers sound tube-like. I imagine the explanation is well-grounded in the scientific realm. Most people who read about this switch and "complain" about it in any technical way see that the claim has no firm grounding in science, then seek to prove that. It has been shown time and again that the switch does not do what has been claimed of it. If you need more evidence, you build amps, test a cabinet yourself with the equipment you surely have! I'm assuming here that unlike Accugroove, you actually test your amps with more than a DC multimeter to back up YOUR claims..

As to the rest of this discussion, Patent Pending status can occur before the examination stages of the patent application procedure. This means if you've paid your fees and filled out your forms, you may have patent pending status, but not have had your idea grilled and tested yet. Testing and a thorough examination of how the product or components work will occur before the patent is awarded. A LONG time before the patent is awarded. It is at this examination stage where many patent applications are squashed.

 

[greenboy]

But all I can say in confidence is that they make a great product and if the patent claims it can do what it was originally meant to do, Good for them. They made a great product even better. I say lets leave this dead horse alone.

No patent has been issued (who knows for sure that one is ven pending?). Another poster just coverd the process generally so I'll skip further repetition.

But I will note that the cabs may sonically please many players but that should not be confused with one "feature" on the cabs which many may have never put to to test with an amp that is know to fail when presented with a 2 ohm or therabouts load, or a fature they've even had cause to use.

But I will caution you: treat the cab as if it were a 4-ohm load and you will be more likely to continue to enjoy its tone and coverage.

 

[Thunderfunk]

Thunderfunk,

It would be the way of a smart business person t if you didn't drag your product down with your rants.

Rants? You're toooo funny. hahahahahaha

 

[BurningSkies]

Rants? You're toooo funny. hahahahahaha

Dave, as a non-AG person, a non-TF person and someone who hasn't been throwing around much of anything on either side of this discussion, I don't have much in the way of personal investment beyond general interest in the outcome.

I can appreciate you standing up for a product/company you believe in, and gear that may sound good. But I can't see a relationship between your 'switch' and the AG switch. I don't think you've ever claimed that it provides 'tube sound' specifically, or represented it as a tube in the amp. I know that it may give 'tube like tone'. I don't think there's ever been the assumption or even a question that it does or doesn't do what you say. Yet, again, the 'switch' on your amp doesn't suggest that it changes the operating/electrical perameters either.

I would think it would be a good thing for AG to put out a statement that acknowledges the current issues, legal status and maybe addresses some of them without full disclosure. I feel bad that this could have been an un-issue with some healthy situation management. But then, small companies aren't always on top of all of the 'business' aspects as some might think...(what with only a few people to do all the work).

I also think that most of us who pay attention to this aren't trying to witch hunt, but just want to see a conclusion. I'm much more interested in a TF-550-B switch than the AG switch, I'd love healthy clean headroom with tube feel!

 

[seamonkey]

You are absolutely right. The guys who are complaining about the AccuSwitch don't even own AccuGroove cabinets. This whole story has been hyped by disgruntled competitors. AccuGroove can't defend themselves because their patent hasn't issued yet. If they disclose how it works their application is void.

And to those who say that it doesn't REALLY change the impedance miss the point. My "The Switch" doesn't REALLY change from a SS to a tube rectifier. It just sounds like it does. So now we'll see posts that they opened up my amp and didn't find a tube inside! hahahahahaha I've had many comments that my amps sound warm like tubes, but don't lose definition. Sam Bollé even prefers my amp over his SVT. So how do the technical types explain that? Fraud?

Your claim is your switch changes the "sound" to that of a tube rectifier. Which is subjective and anecdotal. You have no measurements, or results of double-blind tests that prove it does. Alas, you don't need it, because it's a subjective claim.

The Accuswitch claim wasn't that it changed the sound of the cabinet to a 4 or 8 ohm cabinet. The claim is that it changes the impedance to 4 or 8 ohms. This is a hard claim that can easily be measured. It has been measured and it doesn't work.

Patent pending just means they filed and payed fees for a patent. It doesn't mean it works. The patent office has issued patents on inventions that didn't work. And later revoked them.

Anybody can write to the US patent office and let them know that this claim can't possibly work as claimed. This could save a few tax dollars.

In the meantime, the patent applications keeps others from trying to patent the same circuit for the same claim.

Accugroove could defend itself, but doesn't have to. The fact that they pulled the switch off the market speaks volumes.

 

[Shoreline_gold]

Ok, I admit that my last posting was a bit confusing, since I wrote it at 5 am after coming in from a gig that was so smoke filled my contacts almost popped out of my eyes while driving home. That being said, I still have one question.

I can bet that every bass player on here can show me his or her gear, and tell me what every knob, button and switch does, and what will happen when it is pushed, turned, or engaged. After doing some more reading, I agree that the Accuswitch does NOT switch my cab from 4 to 8 ohms. What anyone at Accugroove said or claimed about the switch is irrelevent to me , since I bought the cab for the sound and weight, not the switch. I'm not on here to defend or accuse anyone, mostly because I'm not paid to do do either. I am paid to play bass. No one has ever had someome come up to me at a gig, point, and say

"What does that not do?

Would you trust a soundman who couldn't tell you what all the knobs and buttons on the board do?

Which leads me to my question.

What does the switch do, if anything, and what effect does it have on the cab, and my amp, if any?

It's got to do something, right?

 

[prismacolor2]

What bothers me is that the switch has been declared a fraud, based soley on the idea that the switch is supposed to change the ohm load of the cabinet from 4 to 8. I don't recall any info an Accugroove actually saying that is what it does, but have seen other sources assuming that is what it does. Accugroove may have put 4 and 8 ohms on the switch and on the specs to simplify things, and we assumed that they were literal. What if the switch is designed to work in another way. If I remember right, the testing did show a difference in the low htz range. Maybe this is the affect the switch is supposed to have. Unless someone can show that Accugroove actually said the switch changes the ohm load of the cabinet, the acmeswitch arguement is totally moot. If someone can show that Accugroove DID state that it changes the ohm load of the cab, then I will be convinced.

OK. That is REALLY reaching. AG claims that the switch changes the load between 4 and 8 Ohms. It doesn't. By laws of physics, it can't.

Actually, defending the switch seems counterproductive. Every time this thread is revived to defend it, thousands of people are reminded that the "Accuswitch" does not work and that no one has come forward to apologize with any solution to or to make the situation right - So bringing it up is probably detrimental to AG at this point.

 

[Shoreline_gold]

I admit that AG did claim that the switch does change the Ohm load of the cab. I was asking for someone to show me where they did, and MOO came through with the goods. I am not defending or accusing them, I just want to know what the switch does.

 

[Thunderfunk]

Dave, as a non-AG person, a non-TF person and someone who hasn't been throwing around much of anything on either side of this discussion, I don't have much in the way of personal investment beyond general interest in the outcome.

I can appreciate you standing up for a product/company you believe in, and gear that may sound good. But I can't see a relationship between your 'switch' and the AG switch. I don't think you've ever claimed that it provides 'tube sound' specifically, or represented it as a tube in the amp. I know that it may give 'tube like tone'. I don't think there's ever been the assumption or even a question that it does or doesn't do what you say. Yet, again, the 'switch' on your amp doesn't suggest that it changes the operating/electrical perameters either.

I would think it would be a good thing for AG to put out a statement that acknowledges the current issues, legal status and maybe addresses some of them without full disclosure. I feel bad that this could have been an un-issue with some healthy situation management. But then, small companies aren't always on top of all of the 'business' aspects as some might think...(what with only a few people to do all the work).

I also think that most of us who pay attention to this aren't trying to witch hunt, but just want to see a conclusion. I'm much more interested in a TF-550-B switch than the AG switch, I'd love healthy clean headroom with tube feel!

There's been way too much assumption going on in this entire topic. I totally agree that AG should do a press release or something in the way of explanation, but that's not for be to say. I have never said the AccuSwitch works. I have not tested it.

But the nay-sayers should be aware they are committing libel. To say that the switch doesn't work because they read it in a magazine is not a defense. That's hearsay. They don't have first hand evidence from THEIR OWN testing. When they're sued for what they've posted here, it might dawn on them that they're playing fast and loose with the evidence. That's all I'm saying.

My comparison to my "tube" switch is to show that just because it has a SS/Tube position doesn't necessarily mean it has a tube in it. END OF RANT. hahahahahaha

 

[prismacolor2]

Well, according to tests in BP and people that have tested it here (and, it seems, - basic laws of physics), it is a 4 Ohm cab and should only be run as such. If you run two 8 ohm cabs, it produces a 4 Ohm load. If you run two 4 Ohm cabs it produces a 2 Ohm load. If you are running an amplifier at 2 Ohms and it's only rated down to 4 Ohms, you are pushing your amplifier beyond it's stable rating and, potentially, shortening the life of the amplifier (straining it beyond it's rated usage). This could also blow yopur amplifier up.

An amplifier rated at 4 Ohms will, most often, operate without apparent ill-effect at a lower load than it is rated for, but ratings are there for a reason and if you damage your amplifier by running the wrong load, your warranty is null and void. I don't thing AG is going to cover your amplifier repair bill because of a null and void warranty.

It may do something but, according to these tests that folks are basing the argument on, not what it states and nothing useful. For all intensive purposes, an "Accuswitch" equipped cab seems like a 4 Ohm cab all day long.