Adding modes to my playing?

[SteveCS]

I've tried and I liked the notes of F# G# A B C# and, D (in any/various combinations) to be used in any "fills" with any chords - Amaj7, Dmaj7, C# - from that song.
I'd like to ask you a question.
We are in the last chord of the cadence - C#.

What pick-up note from the "pool" of my provided notes would be the best note to play before we end up on F# on Beat 1?
Is it C# or D, or G#, or A, or B?



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In my example above I went for G#, but I would naturally gravitate tiowards the E#, which isn't in your 7-note minor scale above.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In my example above I went for G#, but I would naturally gravitate tiowards the E#, which isn't in your 7-note minor scale above.

The melody notes with the C#sus4 and C# chords are - C# and E#.
Could that note E# in the bass affect your choice?

 

[SteveCS]

The melody notes with the C#sus4 and C# chords are - C# and E#.
Could that note E# in the bass affect your choice?

Did you not mean '"E# in the melody"?

E# was my first candidate, but is/was not in your 'pool'. It leads by step to the F# root of the next (tonic) chord - it is logical, compositionally solid and sounds 'well'. Nothing more to it than that, really.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Did you not mean '"E# in the melody"?

Yes.

E# was my first candidate, but is/was not in your 'pool'.

I've just wanted to show the diatonic (as different modes) use/re-use of the same notes while the chords are changing.
E# is, kind of, diatonic but does not fit F#min or Dmaj7 (in Pop music.)

 

[SteveCS]

Yes.

I've just wanted to show the diatonic (as different modes) use/re-use of the same notes while the chords are changing.
E# is, kind of, diatonic but does not fit F#min or Dmaj7 (in Pop music.)

So do you not agree with my assertion, corroborated by a significant body of literature, that the m6, M6, m7 and M7 are all diatonic in the minor key?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So do you not agree with my assertion, corroborated by a significant body of literature, that the m6, M6, m7 and M7 are all diatonic in the minor key?

Theoretically they are "diatonic," just don't use it with any simple pop songs.

Let's try to stress that "diatonic" E# (as F) with Dmaj7 from our song.

 

[SteveCS]

Theoretically they are "diatonic," just don't use it with any simple pop songs.

Let's try to stress that "diatonic" E# (as F) with Dmaj7 from our song.

No - let's keep it as the M3 of the C# and not create confusion with an augmented 2nd (or 9th, to draw in that thread from a couple of weeks ago). It is a simple pop song after all. That's the beauty of having both major and minor 6ths and 7ths available within the key - not having to stick ridgidly/religiously/slavishly to one 'scale' avoids drowning in analysis or getting flustered when something appears to not fit. It might appear to be going outside but it isn't. YMMV.

 

[Les Fret]

Here is what is "under the hood" with your tricky question:

In a minor key there can be 3 scales involved at some points: Harmonic, Natural and Melodic.

Here with your question about D or D# (D# is the best choice btw) and here is why.

We have the perfect example of the way classical musicians practice their minor scales. It goes up as a Melodic minor and goes down as a Natural minor scale.

On the C# chord with your bassline going up to F# minor we have the second tetrachord of the F# melodic and that resolves to the minor Natural for the rest of the chord progression.
The C#7 scale here is the Mixolydian (b6) fifth mode of the Melodic minor scale.

Hope this helps,

GM

Maybe when playing a walking bass type of line the D# is ‘better’. But when soloing over it my ear tells me to play the D. It is also diatonic in this F# minor chord sequence. But both are just as good.

 

[Les Fret]

Let's look at one more "modal" sounding track from Billboard 100.
It's our Grammy 2024 winner - SZA.
(Don't worry, the video does not have any visual distraction.)

We have the "samo-samo" three chord progression (they get Grammies for it) of

Dmin7 - Emin7 - Fmaj7.

The first melody phrase in Verse 1 has the C major chord notes:
E - C - D - E - C - ... and the melodic phrase ends on C and G (while the comping chord is Fmaj7).
The second phrase in Verse 1 also ends on "pure" C.

The first look at the melody would give us a simple C - G - G - C chord progression, but the arranger has decided to "confuse" us with Dmin7 - Emin7 - Fmaj7]

Not totally understand your question regarding the melody, but I see this song as D Dorian.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Not totally understand your question regarding the melody, but I see this song as D Dorian.

Here is what I mean.
If we remove any harmonic comp (no chords) and leave just "pure" melody/vocal, then, we will see that it's Ionian (C major.)
Next.
Instead of placing C major as our Tonic, we "establish" Dmin as our "Tonic" chord.
And that Dmin chord (Dorian) will have it's "pure" Modal chord movements:
Dmin7 - Emin7 - Fmaj7.
That what the arranger/s did.
Also, we can easily replace that chord progression with
F - G(not G7) - Amin
or
Amin - G - F
or
Amin - Emin - Dmin (or Fmaj7)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But when soloing over it my ear tells me to play the D. It is also diatonic in this F# minor chord sequence.

The question about D or D# is interesting.
I've checked several live versions of that song.
The bass players (live) add a lot of embellishments with every chord from that track, but it's impossible to find any embellishment or a fill-in that includes either D or D# with the C#chord.
I've encountered the note, A, which is b6 from the C#Mixolydian (b6.)

Here is the only one time that I've noticed the bass playing(touching) D# with the C# chord.
It's, kind of, a slide from C# through D# to F.

It's at the very end - 3:25:11 - of the live version of that song,
Teddy Swims and Kelly perform a duet of "Lose Control"

 

[Groove Master]

Maybe when playing a walking bass type of line the D# is ‘better’. But when soloing over it my ear tells me to play the D. It is also diatonic in this F# minor chord sequence. But both are just as good.

Oh yeah of course in the context of soloing I would stay close to the Phrygian Dominant too.

But I was answering another "tricky" question about a hypothetic bass line going up to F#min with the D# in a pop tune.

 

[SteveCS]

I've encountered the note, A, which is b6 from the C#Mixolydian (b6.)

... and is also simply the m3 of the key! Focus! It's a simple pop song!

...
Here is the only one time that I've noticed the bass playing(touching) D# with the C# chord.
...

Do your ears tell you it's dissonant, outside and misplaced or consonant, inside and purposeful?

 

[Les Fret]

Here is what I mean.
If we remove any harmonic comp (no chords) and leave just "pure" melody/vocal, then, we will see that it's Ionian (C major.)
Next.
Instead of placing C major as our Tonic, we "establish" Dmin as our "Tonic" chord.
And that Dmin chord (Dorian) will have it's "pure" Modal chord movements:
Dmin7 - Emin7 - Fmaj7.
That what the arranger/s did.
Also, we can easily replace that chord progression with
F - G(not G7) - Amin
or
Amin - G - F
or
Amin - Emin - Dmin (or Fmaj7)

But did the song begin with the melody or what the chords? My guess is it started with chords and that they jammed a melody on top. What you are doing (I guess?) is reasoning backwards.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My guess is it started with chords and that they jammed a melody on top. What you are doing (I guess?) is reasoning backwards.

We have a thread on playing out of Key. It's DEEP for us, the regular bass players.
When we have an example of the Melody as the Ionian mode and the harmonic accompaniment as the Dorian Mode (modal composition), we get alerted. We get suspicious (but Why are you asking it?)

It's ALL GOOD.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

and is also simply the m3 of the key! Focus! It's a simple pop song!

I've just perused through several live versions of that song (more flexibility for the bass players) and provided very few choices of the notes played by various bassists with the C# chord - the last chord of the cadence.

And that note A (just one time) was among those very few note choices of any bass fills/embellishments in the last C# chord of the cadence.
My point was and is:
There is no D or D# heard in any of those various renditions of that very simple pop song in the last measure of C#.
But I (as a bass player) was interested in that specific note choice.
That's why I've asked a question about D.
Don't get stuck on that A.

 

[SteveCS]

We have a thread on playing out of Key.

Can you please explain what is out of key and why. It needs to be better that "This note isn't in that scale". I don't see anything so far that violates any constraints of key.

 

[SteveCS]

That's why I've asked a question about D.

I did offer one possible option using the D - does that not count because it isn't in a recording?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Not totally understand your question regarding the melody, but I see this song as D Dorian.

Here is another song with the same harmonic (modal composition) structure:
Ebmin7 - Ebmin7/Fmin7 - Gbmaj7 -Gbmaj7
The parental scale is Db major.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But did the song begin with the melody or what the chords?

Another Tyla's song with a simple but, kind of, interesting chord vamping.

That song got my attention due to its subtle (percussion-based) rhythmic pattern.
The original bass line from that song is not bad, but the percussion part allows me to "imagine/re-imagine" a new and subtle bass rhythmic "breathing." And it's NOT about "what-other-notes" to play, it's about rhythmically-nuanced, subtle bass pattern based primarily on the root, the 5th, and Octave.
With Bbmin7(11), it OK to incorporate Eb as 11th.

The song has just two chords: Abmin9 and Bmin7(11).
All the notes of the melody are strictly from the Db Mixolydian scale:

The first chord is Abmin9, otherwise could be written as Bmaj7/G# (for pop musicians.)
The Ab minor scale has all the notes from the melody but AVOID (absent) Fb

The second chord is Bbmin7(11).
The Bb minor scale has all the notes from the melody but AVOID(absent) C.

Is that vamping of just two chords - Abmin9 - Bbmin7 an example of Modal composition?
Where is our tonal center - Bb minor?

P.S. I have used the video without visual "attractiveness" in order to focus on Music.