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Anyone moved away from bothering with a B-string?
- Thread starter topo morto
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You may not need NEED a top notch bass and amplification to PLAY a low B, but it sure don't hurt if you want it to SOUND good.
I admit that I am spoiled rotten playing Dingwall basses through Genz Gear, but after playing many low Bs through different rigs, there is a huge difference between playing any old fiver through any only ol' gear, and playing a bass with a killer B through gear that is capable of truly reproducing that B. That ain't some silly old TalkBass wives tale.
To the OP, like many who have responded, I play both. I love the simplicity of a four when the song does not call for a B, but I love having a five when the song calls for it, either because of the additional notes or because it is convenient to be able to play a fretted E shape or simply because I like the sound of my five for that song.
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Got a 5'er to try. Loved it, but mostly because it was ncier than my other basses. After a while, I switched back to a 4. Keep the 5 for "in case" but play the 4 almost exclusively.
Had an SR505 for a few years, realized I use low B less and less, traded for Ray34ca by MM, best decision ever.
To a certain point i have actually brought my tuning up. I used to use a low f# string but for several reasons (money, PA capability, and playability) started tuning my 7 string g#beadgc. Personally i cant see not having a low b at all. I do have a fretless 4 i noodle around on but it never gets used with the band. I play original music that uses the low b string on more than 90% of the material. Basically we have two songs out of 3 albums worth of material where i don't use the low b string and they are both acoustic songs we rarely ever play live. I could probably use my bass whammy to pull off a lot of the low b string stuff, but i run a wireless and don't want to have to run to my pedalboard in the middle of every song.
I think its all preference. I've gone through several different approaches. The reason i got my 7 sting is because i used to lug around 3 basses in different tunings and got tired of it. Even if i don't use the low b on those two songs it's there, so i don't have to bring another bass that has a b string to pull off everything else.
I think its all preference. I've gone through several different approaches. The reason i got my 7 sting is because i used to lug around 3 basses in different tunings and got tired of it. Even if i don't use the low b on those two songs it's there, so i don't have to bring another bass that has a b string to pull off everything else.
I use almost exclusively my 5 strings. Even if I don't use the lowest notes, I get 2 octaves from everywhere on my neck.. And I get a comfortable thumb rest 
Sometimes it's fun to go a little lower than E, or even necessary for a gig. However, I would prefer to never use a 5 except on songs where it is needed. If I had giant hands or perfect technique it would be a different story... I wouldn't knock a 5 or 6 string, though. The more you can do, the better....
I agree that improving technology has a lot to do with B string sounds. I couldn't find a $ $300 cabinet 25 years ago that could reproduce a good B. Now, when the dollar buys far less than it used to in most cases, I have a newer, $300 Ampeg 2x10 that rivals in the low notes my 20 year old Eden 4x10 which cost WAY more than the Ampeg in today's $$'s and real, inflation-adjusted $$'s. Finally, I'm no tech-head but from my experience, I think pick-ups have improved, or at least become more affordable. 20 years ago, I couldn't find a reasonably priced 34" with a good B. I have to assume the pick ups are better at restoring the punch nowadays because I've played several affordable 34's with decent/very good B's. Incidentally, my new Bongo 5HH B is considerably better than the B of my 93 Stingray B and I assume it's the pick up technology.
For a perspective of how low a 4 string is, get the Jamerson tribute/learning set "Standing in the Shadows of Motown." Except for Marcus Miller's take where he starts slapping and maybe going lower, everybody on that disc plays true to form, not going below E and it moves the loins like anything else. Also interesting is the variety of different sounding basses that the players use. Very few seem to be playing P's or even going for a P sound (Phil Chen nails it, though) and you know what, it's still awesome.
Now I must go start a new thread as I went off on a tangent in response to what StayLow said. It's worth reinforcing and elaborating on what he said.
I agree that improving technology has a lot to do with B string sounds. I couldn't find a $ $300 cabinet 25 years ago that could reproduce a good B. Now, when the dollar buys far less than it used to in most cases, I have a newer, $300 Ampeg 2x10 that rivals in the low notes my 20 year old Eden 4x10 which cost WAY more than the Ampeg in today's $$'s and real, inflation-adjusted $$'s. Finally, I'm no tech-head but from my experience, I think pick-ups have improved, or at least become more affordable. 20 years ago, I couldn't find a reasonably priced 34" with a good B. I have to assume the pick ups are better at restoring the punch nowadays because I've played several affordable 34's with decent/very good B's. Incidentally, my new Bongo 5HH B is considerably better than the B of my 93 Stingray B and I assume it's the pick up technology.
For a perspective of how low a 4 string is, get the Jamerson tribute/learning set "Standing in the Shadows of Motown." Except for Marcus Miller's take where he starts slapping and maybe going lower, everybody on that disc plays true to form, not going below E and it moves the loins like anything else. Also interesting is the variety of different sounding basses that the players use. Very few seem to be playing P's or even going for a P sound (Phil Chen nails it, though) and you know what, it's still awesome.
Now I must go start a new thread as I went off on a tangent in response to what StayLow said. It's worth reinforcing and elaborating on what he said.
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I prefer playing on a 4, but that doesn't really matter if the song is written for notes on a low B. Yes the octaves of those notes exist elsewhere, but those versions are weak because they aren't...well...low enough. I suppose it depends on what style of music you are playing.
At the moment my happiest compromise is a 4 string that has been restrung and tuned for BEAD.
At the moment my happiest compromise is a 4 string that has been restrung and tuned for BEAD.
I have played my BEAD bass on several different rigs, and ironically, the only cab it didn't sound good through was an Ampeg SVT-410HLF, which is supposedly designed for ultra lows. I found that it lacked any mids, though.
I think people who think they have a lot of fundamental frequency are really fooling themselves. Electric basses don't even produce that much fundamental frequency, in comparison to the overtones (though still more than guitars, obviously).
Bands I see live often play regular old basses (Fenders, sometimes Gibsons, but seldom anything custom or boutique like a Dingwall), through most commonly Ampeg 810 cabs with either SVT heads or GKs, which is good amplification, but again, not custom or boutique, and they sound fine... even though some of them tune down to low A.
While a "top notch" bass and amp might be how you get your particular sound, to say that you need either just to sound good with a low B is, I think, incredibly silly. And yes, is a silly old talkbass wives' tale.
My main rig is, I think, pretty high quality, but the amp was made thirty years ago, and the cab at least forty years ago. They're not going to produce much 35hz fundamental. My bass is a heavily modded Peavey. All of my rig's components are relatively primitive gear. But I think they sound great, even on those low B whole notes. And I think I'd probably take my setup over your Dingwall and Genz (no offense meant... Dingwalls are fine basses and Genz Benz made some very high quality amps... just not the kind I'm interested in).
In my experience, unless a bass or an amp is total crap, the low B will be just fine.
That's right, most of the B's energy is in the first overtone at roughly 60Hz, which is no big problem for many amps/cabs. Pumping out strong 30Hz fundamentals would probably mostly cause problems in the room and on stage, both acoustically and physically for those listening ...
The other day there was a pretty good 4er for a local pub that had a backline, and instruments to loan out on stage. IF there's ever a jam that I am not able to bring my own bass, and the opportunity to be invited up on stage occurs, on whatever bass available, I am not going to bicker about it, if it's any 4er. Chances are, that if the club chose a 5er it would be inferior - for me - to any corresponding 4er. 4 seems to be bread and butter. But I wouldn't mind a three string either.
Now, back to OP. The OP did make the assumption that "low b-string" and 5 string basses goes together. Nothing was ever said about it being a BEAD four string, which also has a low b. THe low b on that one would be just as bad or good as on an equal 5 string. Now I don't care anymore, use a 5er if you want to. I still do, and will keep it just as the same, one keeps a fretless. For different purposes. Different music, different gigs. Different sounds.
Now, back to OP. The OP did make the assumption that "low b-string" and 5 string basses goes together. Nothing was ever said about it being a BEAD four string, which also has a low b. THe low b on that one would be just as bad or good as on an equal 5 string. Now I don't care anymore, use a 5er if you want to. I still do, and will keep it just as the same, one keeps a fretless. For different purposes. Different music, different gigs. Different sounds.
Well of course, this is a completely subjective personal opinion that works for you. To me, this is like saying that a pair of Cole Haan's and an Armani suit are unnecessary when a Men's Warehouse suit and Sear's shoes will be just fine, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just silly. For my Dad, the latter was more than true, for me, when I was employed by a high profile law firm in LA, it was NOT!
I do get that you are happy with what you are using, and that is great. And I take no offense to your likely preference to your basses and rig. BUT, also with no offense intended, I would NOT choose your rig and basses over mine. I like having growl with articulate definition in my low B. I have owned many fivers and rigs and have NEVER achieved the kind of tone I now get from my current rig. Moreover, I have seen countless bands with bass players playing basses and rigs where I simply cannot make out what they are playing. It sounds like a wall of mud. Maybe that's cool for certain genres, and maybe good enough for those bands for whatever reason. Different strokes. And maybe it was poor live sound, but it happens way too much to be only attributable to that.
The fact that YOU don't believe that it is necessary, and that you are happy with your basses and rig as they are for YOU is great, but that does not mean that they are, would be or should be good enough for me. Nor does it make it silly (except to you personally) for me to believe that I can only be truly happy with the basses and rig I currently have and love. Could I live with a Fender MIM and lower priced amp. Sure. But for me, it wouldn't be good enough. For that, I don't apologize nor do I feel one damn bit silly.
There's "sound good". There's also "sit well in the mix in a live situation".
I play BEADG fiver and my favorite cab is a Berg NV610, which like the Ampeg SVT 8x10 begins rolling off above 40Hz. Guess what, I can hear my low notes just fine even when I'm detuned a half step and playing modern hard rock. Yes, the fundamental is reduced, but IME in a live situation that is a benefit more often than it's a cost. I've played Acme cabs and in the right acoustic environment it's great to hear those low lows, but in over 30 years of gigging I can't recall a soundman ever asking me for more low fundamentals: any EQ requests have been to trim my lows so they don't interfere with FOH. And even when my stage rig is filling the room, those lowest frequencies can be problematic (though of course they can work well).
Anyway... I think my punchy growly live tone "sounds good" even down low, even though the low fundamentals are attenuated. Naturally I'm not saying my choice is best, only that it's perfectly valid and has its advantages.
I never said that you shouldn't use your rig.
All I said was that I think the idea that it's necessary to have a "top notch" bass and amp to have a low B sound good seems a bit far-fetched in my experience. Beneficial? Sure. But necessary? Absolutely not. Saying it's "necessary" is like telling players "if you can't afford boutique equipment, don't even bother with a low B string." I find that completely ridiculous. Not to mention, elitist. It's snobby bullcrap.
I practically live for growl when it comes to bass, so your implication that I can't get it on my BEAD tuned bass seems very strange to me.
The wall of mud problem is more due to poor EQing than not having boutique gear. Lots of people have rigs that they can get good sounds out of, but don't know how to EQ them well. Additionally, many people, especially less well-off players, often don't have good setups on their instruments. Does my Peavey play as well as my Rickenbacker? Of course not. It would be bizarre if it did, and if that was the case, I'd sell the 4001 and just get another Peavey to mod. It will never feel as comfortable to play as my Rickenbacker does. But it has a good sounding low B, after having been set up for that tuning. In my experience, the main difference between varying qualities of instrument, after a good setup, hasn't been sound, but feel.
You seem to think that I'm attacking what you play. I'm not. I'm happy that you like your Dingwall and Genz. But your blanket assertion that it's "necessary" to have such a bass and such an amp to use a low B is a snobby way of saying "don't bother if you can't afford what I have." The idea that a low B will not sound good unless you have a boutique bass and expensive amp is an elitist way to justify having such things, when just the fact that you like a certain bass, or like a certain amp, is justification enough to get one.
I've seen bands that tune down to low A, and use custom instruments through boutique cabs. They sound great. I've also seen bands that'll use a regular Fender P tuned to B, through a GK and a regular old Ampeg 810, who also sound very good. I've seen bands sound bad using gear ranging from beginner to boutique.
Most decent basses, through most decent amps, through most decent cabs, can sound good, even with a low B, if the player knows what he/she is doing as far as having a good setup and being able to EQ. Not the same as higher quality gear, certainly, but if it sounds bad, it's usually due to user error.
It's funny how the debates turns out around here. The only situation where you can hear the lowest fundamentals, the sine wave of the lowest note, are on huge arenas, in church, or outdoors, and the one's who is listening have to be several feets away if not as far back as possible. I can only state that church organs lowest notes are ONLY heard in the back of a large church. You need at least 18-20 meters (whatever that translates to you feet/inches) before any cycle of such low frequency are complete. The only other situation is in the studio, which a just a decent high end headphone amplifier or decent earphones close to your ear. You can hear down to 20 Hz pretty "flat" on these without having to turn it up. Now, most of us plays bass in a situation, live, that is between these both extremes.
That, I believe, is a lot of ... misinformation, to put it politely.
i love bands that use 4 strings. they always sound thinner and smaller than my band 
oh snap... 
(not really true I'm sure, but funny still...)
Lee, Harris, Claypool... they're pretty freakin heavy with only 4 strings, none of which are big ol' fat B's.
I'll say it again, I play 5 string because I like the sound of the B string, which sounds nothing like the E string, note for note.
I use both for pretty much completely different purposes, again, note for note.
Warwick made a 4 string BEAD bass called the Taranis a while ago (basically a Corvette strung that way with a passive P/J setup with GIANT poles). Thing sounded HUGE, I still want one.
For me, yeah, it's all about the B string.
That said, my all time favorite bass string is the A. really.
I use the D and G strings when I want to get all melodic and stuff.
(not really true I'm sure, but funny still...)
Lee, Harris, Claypool... they're pretty freakin heavy with only 4 strings, none of which are big ol' fat B's.
I'll say it again, I play 5 string because I like the sound of the B string, which sounds nothing like the E string, note for note.
I use both for pretty much completely different purposes, again, note for note.
Warwick made a 4 string BEAD bass called the Taranis a while ago (basically a Corvette strung that way with a passive P/J setup with GIANT poles). Thing sounded HUGE, I still want one.
For me, yeah, it's all about the B string.
That said, my all time favorite bass string is the A. really.
I use the D and G strings when I want to get all melodic and stuff.
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Not sure that applies to Sleep, Yob, Church of Misery, Electric Wizard, or, perhaps most notably, Bongripper.i love bands that use 4 strings. they always sound thinner and smaller than my band
