AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...

[g4string]

Spencer's handle here is Spencer! New York Bass Works, I believe? He had one of their JBs with a bunch of switches on it too. I didn't play them, but they both sounded really great.

Thanks. I'll look into it. From a glance, looks like a 1.5 nut with vintage radius. That's what I be looking for.

 

[IntrepidCellist]

I'm curious (Selta?) How the Hathor cabs (1203, 1544 and 1855) did/would do with bowed strings? I play cello -- haven't used it in an amplified setting, yet, but can see the possibility of doing so in the future. Would be great if I had a cab that worked well for both -- primary use would be electric bass, though.

I've been playing electric cello in both rock and quieter, more traditional settings through a Thunderchild 1x12 (Acoustic-Friendly) for about three years now.

It's really hard to beat the smooth, clear presentation. My electric cello (a Yamaha SVC-50) can be a little quacky through traditional bass amplification, but it sounds great through the Thunderchild with both my old Eden WT400 and my Aguilar Tone Hammer 500 (I especially like the Tone Hammer's parametric mids and smooth top end, which helps with the sort of "crunch" and nasal characteristics you can get with piezo-equipped bowed instruments).

I also use the TC112 with the Tone Hammer for electric bass duties in a hard rock originals band, of all things, with a fair bit of overdrive and 4- and 5-string basses. Sounds great; my bandmates really comment on the difference in clarity and depth between my Aguilar/AudioKinesis rig and the rehearsal space's SVT/810 rig.

I have not played a Hathor 1203, although I am sorely tempted by one due to its even lighter weight (and, what seems to be a more rock-oriented sound).

 

[DukeLeJeune]

For the record, I came away from the Seattle GTG as officially a fan of Baer cabs. I got to hear the ML112 and subsequently recommended it to two people because, after they told me what they were looking for, I felt like it would better fill their needs than any of my cabs.

TC118: the Faital 18 in this is just a monster, and laughed at anything we could throw at it. I love the new waveguide/compression driver too, and if I still did rock gigs at all I would buy one of these cabs in a heartbeat. Duke set it up with a pair of port blockers and it would still do absolutely crushing lows. This was probably my favorite out of all of them, especially from my perspective as mainly an EUB player.

Glad you liked it! My wife wanted me to push it as high-end home audio capable as well (we listened to Mike Arnopol and Patricia Barber, among others, through it and it worked pretty well).

I wish the Faital woofer in the TC118 was available in four ohms, then I'd really sell a bunch of big cabs. But fortunately it's still pretty loud even as an 8-ohm cab. It does have a pretty big-sounding bottom end, so that's why I felt like port plugs made sense given our location in the room.

Hathor 1855: brutal! Skip put his 13Hz (low G#) Knuckle through it at one point and the whole venue sort of went into the twilight zone. I'd love to hear the smoothing switch option that Duke worked up but didn't have time to implement before the GTG. Duke: was this the 4 ohm version? Sensory overload kicked in and keeping track of everything became kind of difficult. This cab could tolerate stupid amounts of EQ abuse and a whole lot of stick perfectly happily in any case. To me, this acted a lot like a really good old school 215 stack, assuming you have the power available to really light it up.

Wasn't Skip's bass a monster?? IIRC, the highest string on it was tuned to low-B. We weren't even delivering the third harmonic of that uber-low G# at full power through the 1855, and it was still visceral. Major kudos to your incredible amps for being a rock-solid link in the chain. And thank you so much for letting me plug my cabs into your amps all day!

Yes, that was the 4 ohm version; for those who truly appreciate the inherent virtue of excess, I can do a pair with the 8 ohm version of that woofer (the Faital 18HP1060).

Birdhaus/6666: very successful, I'd say. I think this would be ultra-cool for acoustic upright, but again, it handled all kinds of torture really well, and I could make it work on lots of the sort of gigs I do. My 250 watt@8ohm head started to give up before the cab ever did, even with all kinds of silly EQ'in being applied. Duke was very gracious in letting me indulge every whim with my newly built DIY head, which only had an hour or so of testing on it before the GTG. We also used my bigger DIY rig that does 600@8, 1000+ @4, driven by my tube preamp, for a lot of the listening. I'll defer to the guys who used their G-Ks and other standards, the Vivid Amp guys (cool amps and people BTW), etc., on their impressions on performance with "normal" amp rigs.

I'm pretty sure the Birdhaus had run out of excursion before your amp ran out of juice... it falls in between what one would expect from a 110 and a 112 (assuming "conventional" drivers, not Kappalite-class). But it seemed that people liked it, so soon as the snow lets up I'll bring it inside and take some pictures (it's been trapped in the car because I don't want is to get wet from the snow, even though theoretically its woofers are waterproof.

And, it shall be known as "Birdhaus". Maybe "Birdhaus 46", to distinguish it from future models, just in case others happen.

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

How does the BH46 compare to the 1203?

 

[Passinwind]

How does the BH46 compare to the 1203?

Birdhaus is smaller and a little lighter, handles less power w/somewhat lower sensitivity (?), needs more EQ for fuller lows (if wanted), but side-firing 6s would make it great for jamming at modest volumes in close quarters with acoustic players, for instance. I didn't get a feel for the dispersion of the 1203, but I know that Duke has worked on that aspect a lot with all the Hathors.

I see the BH as likely being an extremely portable/unobtrusive dedicated single cab solution, the 1203 more as a modular/expandable/louder one. The 1203 would probably be much better for rock-oriented distortion too, but others will have to speak to that.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

From a BG perspective, I played my Bongo 6 HS, roundwound strings on it, using two of Charlie's amps. These cabs are studs, and there's really nothing at all that I can find as a negative for them. Even with half of the ports plugged, the TC118 was just ridiculous. The overall response of it was insane, and it "takes" EQ changes nicely. Of course, part of that is the amazing work of Charlie's amps as well, but if the cab can't reproduce what it is being fed, then the best pre in the world won't help you. Even just slight fiddles of the knobs came true. I didn't get to move around a whole lot, but the little that I did had me convinced that the tone across the board is fairly even regardless of your position relative to the cab.

The TC118 is also crazy light. I can pick it up and move it around with one hand. I think Duke said it weighs in at 43 lbs. The form factor isn't much bigger than my 2x 2x10 setup that I sometimes use. Portability with that is astounding - the 115 and 112 have to be even better for sure. Heck, the 112 looked like a toy sitting on top of the 118 .

I really enjoyed your playing through the 118. I forgot to have you try it with the top end rolled off, which may or may not be useful to you, I don't know. And yes, 43 pounds! That's a decent weight for even a 115.

My wife brought along her NS Design CR violin as well. She's a classically trained violinist, who studied at Julliard when she was 11 (by invitation). It goes without saying that she's no slouch or a hack by any means, and was a great test for this. While not a typical instrument that would be put through these by any means, it was a great test of the high frequency extension. The open high E (highest string on a violin) has a fundamental of 659-ish Hz. The highest note (fundamental) on that string is somewhere around 4.4Khz, IIRC. Just to give you an idea of what we were doing, and how far outside the norm for us low end dwellers this is.

We tried several cabs of Duke's designs. My wife and I were both completely, entirely blown away by what those cabs were doing. I never thought I'd see/hear a cab with a primary driver 18" diameter, long excursion do violin any justice. However, the TC118 was super, super impressive. Very rich, full bodied tone. Nothing harsh even on the highest notes.

Ms. Selta playing her electric violin through Thunderchilds 112 and 118 and giving us a mini-concert (over a lot of background noise!) was a high point of my bass cab building career. While she's not the first to put other stringed instruments through my cabs (that distinction probably goes to IntrepidCellist), this was the first time I heard any stringed instrument other that bass of some sort or acoustic guitar through one of my cabs. I've been hoping that the top end of my cabs was smooth enough for violin to sound sweet instead of ouch, and I think we had that going on. All of which is probably of academic interest only to most bass players, but it was like validation for me.

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Great photos - thanks! I only copied the TC118 photo here because I just wanted to mention something. You see how the cut-out is a little too big for the horn? Originally I was planning to use a different horn, but it was just a little bit edgy sounding to my ears, and I knew that cab had a date with Ms. Selta's electric violin coming up. So I found a better horn and modified the cut-out and crossover and history was made: a 118 bass cab didn't suck on violin. Well mine might not be the first such 118, but it probably doesn't have a lot of company.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Duke had [the TC118 and Hathor 1855] set up really differently, so I'm not sure I could compare low end confidently...

The TC118 has a bit "bigger and rounder" low end, while the Hathor 1855 has a "thumps harder" low end... does that make any sense? The subwoofer in the 1855 has a very powerful motor with a 4-inch voice coil, and that translates into more impact (on your wallet as well as your audience!). It also has twice the thermal and mechanical power handling of the woofer in the TC118; it's a bit of a beast, and can move more air than most 215s this side of the fEARfuls.

Of course both have the pluggable ports, so both can be tailored to a certain extent. And if you really wanted a bigger low end from the 1855, you could shorten the ports - they have a center section that can be removed, raising the tuning frequency. This does reduce fartout resistance a bit, but you start out with a lot of fartout resistance, so you stand a good chance of getting away with it.

... I'd love to hear the 1855 and the TC118 side by side.

That day will come... the mountain will come to Mohammad!

 

[Passinwind]

Ms. Selta playing her electric violin through Thunderchilds 112 and 118 and giving us a mini-concert (over a lot of background noise!) was a high point of my bass cab building career. While she's not the first to put other stringed instruments through my cabs (that distinction probably goes to IntrepidCellist), this was the first time I heard any stringed instrument other that bass of some sort or acoustic guitar through one of my cabs. I've been hoping that the top end of my cabs was smooth enough for violin to sound sweet instead of ouch, and I think we had that going on. All of which is probably of academic interest only to most bass players, but it was like validation for me.

That was way cool Duke. I had solidbody violin in my band for a few years and the guy's amp and cab choices back then never really made me all that happy. Your cabs would have been perfect.

FWIW, we were using my tube preamp for that, mainly because I trusted it more since I already know what it does, and I also figured that the extra transformer on the input section might be beneficial. I figured we could move to the new solid state one with the fully parametric EQ section if the tube one wasn't a good match, but I guess we can try that another time...

 

[Selta]

Duke - heh, you're far too humble. All of your cabs sounded *GREAT* with Violin as well as BG. The 118 is no exception to that what so ever, which to me is astounding. I can't think of a single other cab that covers that tone as well as your designs. And trust me, we've been looking. For a long time. I don't know what voodoo magic you're working in the design, crossover or fairy dust sprinkled inside, but whatever it is, it works amazingly well. Give yourself a hefty amount more credit - it is most certainly due!
I also realize for most other BG and even upright players, this isn't such a big deal, but for me/us, this is huge. I'm still all giddy about those cabs.... pretty sure a TC118 is in my future, and probably soon.
Thank you, again.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

The 1855 most definitely is fuzz/overdrive friendly, and I think will be even more so, presuming that Duke gets the smoothing switch option worked out (since some pedals will benefit from additional midrange presence, but others might sound better with things smoothed out a bit).

I got into working on the switch... and, it turned into two switches: one to smooth the 1-2 kHz octave, and another to smooth the mids' top end (there is also some emphasis from 4-6.5 kHz which stands out a bit more once we smooth the 1-2 kHz region).

I know that the primary difference between the TC112 and the Hathor 1203 will be in how the midrange and treble are handled but, with the TC being a slightly bigger cab, how do they compare in low-end performance?

Accordingly to my modelling program, the TC112 is -3 dB at 53 Hz and -1 dB at 62 Hz, the first overtone of low-B. The smaller Hathor 1203 is -3 dB at 62 Hz. So the TC112 does have a bit bigger low end.

For electric bass, I suspect that I'd like the Hathor cabs more than the TCs (I like a forward midrange and some growl). For bowed strings/handling a variety of sources, it seems that the TCs would be preferable. I'm curious (Selta?) How the Hathor cabs (1203, 1544 and 1855) did/would do with bowed strings? I play cello -- haven't used it in an amplified setting, yet, but can see the possibility of doing so in the future. Would be great if I had a cab that worked well for both -- primary use would be electric bass, though.

In the pipeline is the Hathor 1231... it adds a tweeter to the 1203, along with switchable midrange response-smoothing circuitry. Weight and price will go up, but there's a good chance this version will work well for cello and other stringed instruments. That's my intention anyway.

[Edit 4-6-2014: The 1231 has been prototyped, and the tweeter isn't worth the added trouble and expense, so I'm pulling the plug on the 1231. But the midrange smoother circuitry is clearly beneficial, and will be offered as an option.]

How would a 2x1203 stack compare with a single 1855? A 1544?

The 1855 will go deeper and growlier, and max SPL is about the same.

The 1544 is scheduled for revision, and at this point I'm not sure exactly what direction that revision will take. The original 1544 was smooth, and now I want the Hathor line to have a bit more bite (even if it's switch-off-able), so the revision will at least go in that direction.

 

[Jeff Scott]

...pretty sure a TC118 is in my future, and probably soon.
Thank you, again.

Will the Mrs. let you borrow it, occasionally?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I'm familiar with some of the Thunderchild series but it looks like Duke is coming out with a lot of great new ideas!

Thank you very much, but an awful lot of the credit goes to this guy:

Man--I've got to stop making suggestions and building prototypes for you!

Sounds like everything went great---congrats, Duke!

Mike not only built the first TC118 after I'd turned my back on the cab because I thought there was too much prejudice against 18's, he then called me up and told me that I needed to put that cab into production.

Mike is the primary motivation behind my recent surge of creativity because his Big E cabs are really really good. Mike is forcing me to up my game... not that I wasn't giving it my best before, but now I really have to bring it if I want to stay in the bass cab game. Which I do. So I need to find ways to do things that my cabs haven't done before.

And just so you know, I don't hold out on Mike when he asks me to help with a crossover design or something. If I'm to be competitive with him, I want it to be on a level playing field, where we are each able to do the best possible embodiments of our concepts. I ask him questions all the time and he never holds out on me either, even if I don't think to ask the right question - like when he called me up and told me to build the TC118.

 

[christw]

Speaking of the TC118, I just said something to Duke in a PM that I don't think I've ever said before: One is enough.

I've been using it with a 300w tube amp and haven't once thought that I needed anything more. In fact, I was playing with an incredibly loud punk band this past weekend that solidified that feeling. I had a very scooped tone and it was just killing it with more than enough headroom for me to feel comfortable. I'm kind of afraid to use it with the IPR 1600.

Mike and Duke do great work. Between the cabs I have from them, I don't need anything else. That doesn't mean I don't want stuff though...

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I've been playing electric cello in both rock and quieter, more traditional settings through a Thunderchild 1x12 (Acoustic-Friendly) for about three years now.

Great to hear that little cab's still working for you! I think your cab was retrofitted with the Acoustic Friendly rear-firing tweet - is that correct?

How does the BH46 compare to the 1203?

To follow up on Charlie's response, the BH46 falls well short of the Hathor 1203 in maximum output, doesn't go as deep, and is a bit less efficient as well.

The Birdhaus is mainly a jam session cab, where your "audience" is your buddies to either side of you. Hence the side-firing speakers. That very wide pattern should also lend itself well to small acoustic gigs, like if you're going to be accompanying unamplified acoustic guitar or something like that. It's also considerably easier to carry because of its more suitcase-like form factor (which makes more of a difference than the two pound differential does), and it's going to be considerably less expensive (ceramic magnet woofers, no crossover required - blasphemy!!).

I'm probably going to claim 93 to 94 dB efficiency and 200 watts power handling (estimated fartout threshold... the thermal rating would be 400 watts), and it's an 8-ohm cab. I estimate -3 dB somewhere in the mid to lower 70's, so it's going to fall short on low-B. Dimensions are 18" tall by 10" wide by 15" deep, and weight of the prototype is 22 pounds (the production version might be a little heavier, depends on whether or not I recess the front-facing pair of woofers). Air-moving capability falls in between a normal 110 and a normal 112 (and by "normal", I mean "not Kappalite-class").

So the specs are by no means exciting, but it was pretty well received at the GTG. I plan to get the prototype into the hands of an upright bass player before too long, in hopes that it might be a decent little double-duty cab.

Here's a shot, with Gandalf the Grey included for scale:

Question for all of you: See how the side-firing woofer is recessed by half an inch? How important do you think it is for me to recess the two front-firing woofers?

Thanks!

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Duke and I call each other all the time making suggestions. I'll have a good idea that he can implement in his cabs. He'll call me with an idea for mine. It's a pretty cool relationship. We're both actually really happy for the other's success.

My cabs wouldn't be nearly as good without his help---I hope I've helped him with his.

I have to admit---every once in a while I think "maybe I'm being a bit too helpful!"

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I plan to get the prototype into the hands of an upright bass player before too long, in hopes that it might be a decent little double-duty cab.

Hey! I play upright!

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

I don't mind the bug eye look to the cab
But I'm partial to pugs!

 

[Passinwind]

I don't mind the bug eye look to the cab
But I'm partial to pugs!

Off to the doghouse with you, this is the Birdhaus thread.

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Recessing drivers the way you do it adds weight, right Duke? In this case I think I'd favor whatever the lightest solution would be.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Hey! I play upright!

Yes you do!!

If the guy I have lined up changes his mind (the weight did come in higher than what he wanted), I'll shoot the Birdhaus cab to you.

I don't mind the bug eye look to the cab
But I'm partial to pugs!
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Ha! That's GREAT! You win the four-legged photo category!!

 

[nostatic]

I think Recessing Drivers is playing Coachella this year...