AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...

[steubig]

i read that review. didn’t it end with, “sorry, what were we talking about?”

 

[MarkA]

i read that review. didn’t it end with, “sorry, what were we talking about?”

Yeah, man... like, maybe? It was beautiful, though.

 

[Wangopengo]

I'd typed up something about this, but lost it when I copied-and-pasted that Coachella link. Probably just as well!

As far as appropriateness -- or maybe propriety -- goes, I want to keep in mind that this is an AK thread (not that comparisons to other cabs are in themselves inappropriate). Too, as you can see in my sig, my MAS 46 (one of the cabs being discussed) is currently for sale -- I'll try not to let that influence my answer, but now, if you're reading, you're aware and can factor that knowledge in as you see fit.

Briefly -- and looking at the cabs solely in terms of output potential -- I would expect a TC 112 to be roughly equivalent to a "MAS 36," if such a cab existed, or to your 26 plus a 16 (1x6"), @Elias86.

This correlates both with my subjective impressions, having played my Hathor 1203 (earlier, one-port version, which I take as a proxy for the TC 112, here) alongside my MAS 46 and alongside a couple of MAS 18 (1x8") cabs (singly and stacked) and having had the 1203 and 46 out in various settings, and with the displacement numbers (Vd) for the cabs:

• MAS 26, ~300 cc
• MAS 18, ~350 cc
  
• "MAS 36" (or 26 + 16 stack), ~450 cc
• Hathor 1203 (and TC 112), ~500 cc
• MAS 46, ~600 cc
• MAS 28 (or 2 x 18 stack), ~700 cc

Played side-by-side (during a visit to Mike's place) with the Hathor 1203, a single 18 went deeper but didn't feel quite as "big" sonically and, as we started to push them (just a bit -- I don't like to hear cabs strain), the Hathor felt like it had more to give in terms of volume than the 18 did. With two 18s stacked, the situation was reversed -- the stack felt "bigger" and seemed to have more to give in terms of volume. The 46 goes louder than the Hathor 1203 and feels "bigger" with a group. The 28 (or 2x18 stack) has, to my ear, a bit more "beef" than the 46 and feels like it might go a bit louder.

There's more to volume, measured and perceived, than displacement -- and I'm not saying that perceived volume or the sonic "bigness" of the rigs increased in exact proportion to the displacement -- but, in this case, the numbers seem to line up pretty well with my subjective impressions.

The above assumes that the cabs are adequately powered to reach their volume potential. Voicing, EQ, and your HPF usage will all have some effect.

My experience with the AK cabs is primarily with the Hathor 1203. I did pick up a Changeling 112 not too long ago, but haven't been able to take it out, so I've only messed about with it at home. I played an early (I think v1) TC 112 some years ago at Mike Arnopol's place, back when he built some cabs for Duke, but have not played any of the more recent Thunderchildren. I would expect the output potential of the TC to be similar to that of the Hathor, but with more available bass (by virtue of the TC's larger cab).

I've owned and played several of the MAS cabs, including an earlier, two-way 66 and the later, three-way 46 I have now. I've not played Mike's most recent cabs based on the new drivers he's using, but plan to try a couple at some point.

As for the "MVW magic" (what the MAS/Big E cabs do with the rear wave of the speaker and the vortex-related stuff) it's a real thing and the effects are, in my experience, unique and most-always (but not always) advantageous, but Duke's cabs have their own positive attributes that have less to do with any specific, groundbreaking technology than with a thoughtful, well-implemented, and musical design.

That might sound like faint praise for either maker, but I don't intend it that way. Mike's cabs do things that I haven't been able to duplicate with any other cab (my MAS 112 made a massive difference in my ability to hear myself and enjoy playing in a particularly challenging club and is magic outdoors) and the little Hathor 1203 is literally my favorite conventional (i.e. "ported or sealed") bass cab among any I've played. I don't have as much experience with different rigs as some folks, but I've made at least passing acquaintance with all of the usually backlined stuff, the usual music-store stuff, and assorted cabs from most of the high-end manufacturers -- they all have things going for them, but none of them has caused me to change my mind.

People's situations and preferences might differ from mine (in some settings, I can see an old B-15 as being my "favorite amp/cab ever" -- and it'll do things that my modern cabs won't -- even though it would be unsuitable for much of what I play) and mine have and will likely continue to evolve, but, for the time being, there are situations in which I prefer the AK cab and situations in which I prefer the MAS -- and, if I had had to, between the Hathor 1203 and the MAS 112, I think I could cover pretty much any gig.

More could always be said, but I think I'll leave it there.

Thank you. I did enjoy and appreciate your wd review on the youtube.

 

[MarkA]

Thank you. I did enjoy and appreciate your wd review on the youtube.

Thank you!

I'm afraid that you have me confused with someone else, though -- as I mentioned some posts up, I've never played a WD-800 (assuming that's what you mean by wd) and I don't have any reviews up on youtube. (None that I'm aware of, anyway! )

Did you mean to quote someone else?

 

[Wangopengo]

Thank you!

I'm afraid that you have me confused with someone else, though -- as I mentioned some posts up, I've never played a WD-800 (assuming that's what you mean by wd) and I don't have any reviews up on youtube. (None that I'm aware of, anyway! )

Did you mean to quote someone else?

Yes sorry thought i was commenting on nostatics post

 

[Al Kraft]

@Al Kraft might have some perspective.

I think nostatic said it as well as I could. I would add that the reason one likes the 400/400+ might make that or a WD the better choice.

If a tube kind of feel and harmonic richness in the tone/voicing, but a somewhat clean style (not SS sterile) is your thing, the WD can deliver that IMO. The WD low damping setting will help close any perceived gap there as well. Despite having a different approach to EQ and voicing, I think someone who liked what the 400/400+ controls could do would find the WD very versatile and easy to get used to.

If you like the warmth and dirt in your tone to be from power tube break-up, then the 400/400+ might make you happier. The WD will likely remind you a bit more of the Walkabout and MPulse series heads than the 400/400+. It has a touch of Carbine in it in terms of note to note articulation (adjustable with the damping control) and feels a bit more modern rock centered than vintage tube in some respects to me. I seem to recall the 400/400+ impressing me the same way...I did not hear them as an SVT copy.

BIG DISCLAIMER HERE...I have very limited, and no recent exprience with the 400/400+....we're counting on my memory which is not something to bet the farm on.

Last thing, and I can confidentally vouch for this, is that the WD plays quite nicely with AK cabs. My WD and C112T is truly a favorite combination for me and my bandmates. If pressed to sell all my gear except for a single head and cab for everything I do from rock to country to bluegrass, the WD and C112T be my set-up...and usually is! I hope that helps.

 

[Wangopengo]

I think nostatic said it as well as I could. I would add that the reason one likes the 400/400+ might make that or a WD the better choice.

If a tube kind of feel and harmonic richness in the tone/voicing, but a somewhat clean style (not SS sterile) is your thing, the WD can deliver that IMO. The WD low damping setting will help close any perceived gap there as well. Despite having a different approach to EQ and voicing, I think someone who liked what the 400/400+ controls could do would find the WD very versatile and easy to get used to.

If you like the warmth and dirt in your tone to be from power tube break-up, then the 400/400+ might make you happier. The WD will likely remind you a bit more of the Walkabout and MPulse series heads than the 400/400+. It has a touch of Carbine in it in terms of note to note articulation (adjustable with the damping control) and feels a bit more modern rock centered than vintage tube in some respects to me. I seem to recall the 400/400+ impressing me the same way...I did not hear them as an SVT copy.

BIG DISCLAIMER HERE...I have very limited, and no recent exprience with the 400/400+....we're counting on my memory which is not something to bet the farm on.

Last thing, and I can confidentally vouch for this, is that the WD plays quite nicely with AK cabs. My WD and C112T is truly a favorite combination for me and my bandmates. If pressed to sell all my gear except for a single head and cab for everything I do from rock to country to bluegrass, the WD and C112T be my set-up...and usually is! I hope that helps.

Thank you. Yes this helps.
Im going more for tube richness and harmonics as well as a little brighter than the d800.
Ive always come away happy when i used a carbine on a backline.
Definitly spoiled by the 400+ but i just dont want to lug it around.
I love the 1 trip load in with 2 of dukes cabs a bass on my back and a cute little 800 watt head. (1 cab is usually enough)

 

[Snaxster]

Incidentally, I've never been to Coachella.

Hi Mark. Long time! You reminded me that I did go to to Coachella once (which fact I rarely recall). It was in 2001. By that time, going to a music festival was not at all my bag, Baby. But... well it's a multi-threaded story. Anyway,

the acts I definitely saw were

The Roots
Iggy Pop
Sigur Rós
Squarepusher​

and those I think I saw were

Jane's Addiction
Mos Def
Ozomatli​

Sigur Rós played in the small tent at night, which was the perfect vibe and club-like venue size for them. They were excellent and sounded great.

 

[MarkA]

Hi Mark. Long time! You reminded me that I did go to to Coachella once (which fact I rarely recall). It was in 2001. By that time, going to a music festival was not at all my bag, Baby. But... well it's a multi-threaded story. Anyway,

the acts I definitely saw were

The Roots
Iggy Pop
Sigur Rós
Squarepusher​

and those I think I saw were

Jane's Addiction
Mos Def
Ozomatli​

Sigur Rós played in the small tent at night, which was the perfect vibe and club-like venue size for them. They were excellent and sounded great.

Hey, Snaxter, hope you're well!

All this somehow reminds me that I need to get out more (and not just lately, but lately, too).

 

[Al Kraft]

Thank you. Yes this helps.
Im going more for tube richness and harmonics as well as a little brighter than the d800.
Ive always come away happy when i used a carbine on a backline.
Definitly spoiled by the 400+ but i just dont want to lug it around.
I love the 1 trip load in with 2 of dukes cabs a bass on my back and a cute little 800 watt head. (1 cab is usually enough)

It sounds to me like the WD if not exactly what you want, would impress you. I think Andy stirred in just enough Carbine to keep things tight and focussed when the volume goes up, but gave us the variable damping and adjustable HPF to allow us to keep that big full low end and "tube looseness" feel, but still provide good definition for the notes with somewhat rounder and less hard edges. The preamp provides a harmionically rich/interesting tone even when you're really clean.

IMO the WD is the most inherently/naturally open up top of all the SW heads. While not quite Carbine or GK MB "in your face" bright or piercing (I own all three Carbine and all three GK MB models as a point of reference), it has a nice polite presence that really lifts the notes and helps you sit well in a busy mix. The adjustable damping seems to make almost no difference for me in the high mids or top end. That means you're very free to play with the dmaping to get that tube amp feel in the lower range and you can increase focus and definition with upper mid and treble EQ adjsutments. It's a unique thing that is surprsingly intuitive.

Much of what I like most about the WD is that feels different to play than most SS or hybrid heads (with the Mesa Walkabout and Aguilar's TH being notable exceptions). Even if the variable damping feature isn't a super noticeable change to someone listening (and it is subtle), the change in the feel does inspire you to play differently and that is quite noticeable IME.

One final thing - with the voicing versatility Duke designs into his cabs and the voicing flexibility Andy gave us in the WD, you probably won't find a bigger set of options to get your sound regardless of size or weight. As much as I love my SW115 and 112 with the SW heads, the WD with Duke's cabs is truly a "going first class" thing of beauty. Good luck on your choice!

 

[nutdog]

As I said, I've never been there, but I'm guessing that's a conservative estimate. Did you catch Two People Stoned, though? I listened to their set on Youtube. It was... mellow. "Pleasant," as Rolling Stone described it, "but oddly aimless."

I haven’t heard them. I thought they were hard rock.

 

[Wangopengo]

It sounds to me like the WD if not exactly what you want, would impress you. I think Andy stirred in just enough Carbine to keep things tight and focussed when the volume goes up, but gave us the variable damping and adjustable HPF to allow us to keep that big full low end and "tube looseness" feel, but still provide good definition for the notes with somewhat rounder and less hard edges. The preamp provides a harmionically rich/interesting tone even when you're really clean.

IMO the WD is the most inherently/naturally open up top of all the SW heads. While not quite Carbine or GK MB "in your face" bright or piercing (I own all three Carbine and all three GK MB models as a point of reference), it has a nice polite presence that really lifts the notes and helps you sit well in a busy mix. The adjustable damping seems to make almost no difference for me in the high mids or top end. That means you're very free to play with the dmaping to get that tube amp feel in the lower range and you can increase focus and definition with upper mid and treble EQ adjsutments. It's a unique thing that is surprsingly intuitive.

Much of what I like most about the WD is that feels different to play than most SS or hybrid heads (with the Mesa Walkabout and Aguilar's TH being notable exceptions). Even if the variable damping feature isn't a super noticeable change to someone listening (and it is subtle), the change in the feel does inspire you to play differently and that is quite noticeable IME.

One final thing - with the voicing versatility Duke designs into his cabs and the voicing flexibility Andy gave us in the WD, you probably won't find a bigger set of options to get your sound regardless of size of weight. As much as I love my SW115 and 112 with the SW heads, the WD with Duke's cabs is truly a "going first class" thing of beauty. Good luck on your choice!

 

[Wangopengo]

Thanks, its on order..
That tube looseness is something that suits my style and im looking for.
Appreciate your time and thoughts.

 

[tombowlus]

I think nostatic said it as well as I could. I would add that the reason one likes the 400/400+ might make that or a WD the better choice.

If a tube kind of feel and harmonic richness in the tone/voicing, but a somewhat clean style (not SS sterile) is your thing, the WD can deliver that IMO. The WD low damping setting will help close any perceived gap there as well. Despite having a different approach to EQ and voicing, I think someone who liked what the 400/400+ controls could do would find the WD very versatile and easy to get used to.

If you like the warmth and dirt in your tone to be from power tube break-up, then the 400/400+ might make you happier. The WD will likely remind you a bit more of the Walkabout and MPulse series heads than the 400/400+. It has a touch of Carbine in it in terms of note to note articulation (adjustable with the damping control) and feels a bit more modern rock centered than vintage tube in some respects to me. I seem to recall the 400/400+ impressing me the same way...I did not hear them as an SVT copy.

BIG DISCLAIMER HERE...I have very limited, and no recent exprience with the 400/400+....we're counting on my memory which is not something to bet the farm on.

Last thing, and I can confidentally vouch for this, is that the WD plays quite nicely with AK cabs. My WD and C112T is truly a favorite combination for me and my bandmates. If pressed to sell all my gear except for a single head and cab for everything I do from rock to country to bluegrass, the WD and C112T be my set-up...and usually is! I hope that helps.

I have not done a direct comparison between my Bass 400 and my WD-800, but I will try and get around to this sometime in the nearish future. I have compared the Bass 400 (and a number of other excellent all-tube heads) to some fantastic class-D competitors (many with tube front ends), and some of the hybrid class-D's get really close to the tonality that I like from the all-tube heads. Certainly, the WD-800 is going to be closer than the majority of the class-D heads on the market. But there is a certain "feel" associated with tube output sections that I have not experienced from any class-D product. Some do get pretty close, though, such as the Arkham Beast of Both Worlds and the Reiner Amplification Saturn V.

 

[Al Kraft]

But there is a certain "feel" associated with tube output sections that I have not experienced from any class-D

This is the one area where I think the WD "narrows the gap" a bit better than many of the class D offerings I've owned and/or played. Between an excellent tube-based preamp, the design intent to focus on a more tube-centered than SS voicing overall, and the variable damping switch set to "low", I'm not sure most people would automatically think "SS, not a tube head" once you've slotted into the mix. For me, the variable damping control really introduced a whole new dimension to the feel of a class D (or even just SS) head.

 

[tombowlus]

This is the one area where I think the WD "narrows the gap" a bit better than many of the class D offerings I've owned and/or played. Between an excellent tube-based preamp, the design intent to focus on a more tube-centered than SS voicing overall, and the variable damping switch set to "low", I'm not sure most people would automatically think "SS, not a tube head" once you've slotted into the mix. For me, the variable damping control really introduced a whole new dimension to the feel of a class D (or even just SS) head.

I agree, and the WD-800 is definitely ahead of most class-D heads. But the Arkham and Reiner take that "feel" thing even further, IME/IMHO. YMMV, of course.

 

[Wangopengo]

I agree, and the WD-800 is definitely ahead of most class-D heads. But the Arkham and Reiner take that "feel" thing even further, IME/IMHO. YMMV, of course.

Wow those look nice.
The Arkham pre has my attention!

 

[Al Kraft]

Wow those look nice.

I can only imagine that they sound even better than they look!

 

[staccatogrowl]

. . "feel" associated with tube output sections that I have not experienced from any class-D product. Some do get pretty close, though, such as the Arkham Beast of Both Worlds and the Reiner Amplification Saturn V

Well, since alternate worlds and space travel are aptly mentioned in the names of these two examples, here's some general pricing / specification / availability context* for the more gravity-constrained unfortunates:

Arkham Beast of Both Worlds: $1,650 + shipping, 6-wk build time, 2.7-ohm minimum impedance

Reiner Amplification Saturn V: > $2,000 + shipping (est), 12 units hand built and sold out (est), 2-ohm minimum impedance

Out of curiosity, and of a more worldly nature: Do these two amps meet both domestic and international safety and EMC standards, and if so, are they verified? (For example, the Mesa WD-800 has both FCC and CE approval logos apparent on its back panel near the power receptacle.)

Fortunately for me, I am able to reach for the stars with my existing amp, a GenzBenz Shuttlemax 9.2, freshly rejuvenated at the factory spa recently by @agedhorse . Thanks, Andy!

I prefer the solid state preamp section of the class-D powered Smax 9.2 amp to anything else I have ever played, LedSled tube and hybrid amps included. Smax 9.2 is a stellar drive for my ThunderChild 212 or Hathor 1203.

However, I am a longtime class-D user and early adapter. Here is my current and longtime woodshed / studio head. With Hathor, it's a great, pristine monitoring setup on a small stage:

No excuses or apologies for class-D from me. I am considering trying a Mesa WD-800, given its appealing availability, feature set, warranty, price, and designer and manufacturer's pedigrees. It would allow me to use both AK cabs together, although that's probably never going to be needed (FOH support).

*subject to confirmation / correction, as needed

 

[Joebone]

Fortunately for me, I am able to reach for the stars with my existing amp, a GenzBenz Shuttlemax 9.2, freshly rejuvenated at the factory spa recently by @agedhorse . Thanks, Andy!

I prefer the solid state preamp section of the class-D powered Smax 9.2 amp to anything else I have ever played, LedSled tube and hybrid amps included. Smax 9.2 is a stellar drive for my ThunderChild 212 or Hathor 1203.

This is not surprising. I have an old GBE 600 and the little 3.0 shuttle heads, and I also own a 9.2 shuttle, saddled to the 6.2 cabinet. I really, really dig the solid-state channel on those first two amps!