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AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...
- Thread starter Thor
- Start date
Because it’s fun when some pedantic a-hole comes along and muddies the water, I would like to point out that the 75 hp F-134 engine in my old Jeep (a 2.2L four with design roots in the 1930s) weighs about 470 lb., whereas a Buick 350, one of the lighter small-block Detroit V8s, weighs about 450 lb.
They are vastly different in sound and feel, though.
Hey, yeah, I don’t mind being that guy once in awhile. Been kind of quiet around here anyway.
I hope Duke is well; haven’t seen hide nor hair of him around these parts in awhile.
They are vastly different in sound and feel, though.
Hey, yeah, I don’t mind being that guy once in awhile. Been kind of quiet around here anyway.
I hope Duke is well; haven’t seen hide nor hair of him around these parts in awhile.
I can attest to his product sounding good when powered by amps NOT of choice, too. I have plugged some stupid stuff into my Birdhaus, and it sounds good with pretty much everything. 15 watts up to 750 watts so far...
Howdy folks. I heard from Duke the other day (after relentless pestering). He hopes to get back to Texas and building cabs again in the next week or so. 
it’s good to get some Duke-related news!
Howdy folks. I heard from Duke the other day (after relentless pestering). He hopes to get back to Texas and building cabs again in the next week or so.
glad he can get home. i assume that he’s been dealing with family stuff elsewhere (?).
Tonight I carried one of my single port 1203s, my 1506, and 2 standard Auralex pads ( small one and a bigger one, ) along with a D-800, to a friend's place where she has room to turn up a little bit - I've been stuck playing only in the living room during shelter in place. The space is a concrete slab soft story garage. Among other things I systematically A - B tested both set ups with & without the Auralex pads. In that particular environment, at moderate volume, there was a small, but easily discernible, improvement with the pads in place. A more focused sound.
Everybody will hear things in their own way, so tough question...
I play four string almost exclusively. I have played many gigs & jams with the pair of 1203, always a pair, fewer with the 1506 - haven't owned it as long. To me the pair of 1203 is smoother and probably more versatile than the 1506. A do anything & everything player like Wilbur Bascomb Jr. might prefer that stack, whereas the 1506 is rowdy, rockabilly, Americana, big midrange, vintage Jeff Beck & Savoy Brown covers. For gigging simpler is always better, so until the shutdown I was loving the single 1506, but both set ups share the AK main feature: phenomenal potability with very little sacrifice of tone & power handling.
I play four string almost exclusively. I have played many gigs & jams with the pair of 1203, always a pair, fewer with the 1506 - haven't owned it as long. To me the pair of 1203 is smoother and probably more versatile than the 1506. A do anything & everything player like Wilbur Bascomb Jr. might prefer that stack, whereas the 1506 is rowdy, rockabilly, Americana, big midrange, vintage Jeff Beck & Savoy Brown covers. For gigging simpler is always better, so until the shutdown I was loving the single 1506, but both set ups share the AK main feature: phenomenal potability with very little sacrifice of tone & power handling.
I sometimes use a TC115 vs my usual TC112. Though not the same as the H cabs, TC’s share much of the same DNA. I’m weighing in to mention that the 115 does have a rowdier and much louder voice, but it also is much more responsive to the use of variable port plugs, all the way from sealed cab to wide open big low end, depending on how you configure the ports. The 112 has similar skills, but the range is narrower and it sounds so good wide open, that’s how I run it on live stages (yes, I remember those). I hope that’s responsive, Mark.
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Ditto. I've got a TC115 v1 and the ability to change the tuning with the plugs (4 plugs in the v1) is downright fun. And useful.
This.
My first-gen Thunderchild AF is transparent enough to let me really hear the details, yet smooth enough that it doesn't exaggerate what's going on in the rest of the signal chain.
Finally got my TC112 v1 today. Only got to play it for a few minutes so far, but it's basically the same sound I get practicing through studio headphones. One pleasant surprise--well, not surprise, but, eh, finding, I guess--is that my TCE MojoMojo overdrive sounds really good through it. A number of comments here stated that the Thunderchild cabs aren't great for overdrive, and I suspect that probably is the case for many (or most) OD pedals, but I like this combination. The MojoMojo steps up the voltage internally to, IIRC, 48V, and I think that makes a big difference, especially when playing through such a hi-fi speaker. But I digress.
I think I made the right choice for my situation, or well, my expected situation after this crisis abates. The TC112 will probably end up meeting my needs better given my wide range of gigs. I also like the extra air up top that the TC presents (my MAS does not have a tweeter, so its response only goes to about 14khz). That said, my MAS26 has set the bar very, very high for feel and response. I need to compare the two a bit more, but I don't think the TC is quite as responsive. Plugging one port seems to help a bit. I'll experiment more tomorrow in a bigger room. That should make it easier to compare the deep bass response.
I think I made the right choice for my situation, or well, my expected situation after this crisis abates. The TC112 will probably end up meeting my needs better given my wide range of gigs. I also like the extra air up top that the TC presents (my MAS does not have a tweeter, so its response only goes to about 14khz). That said, my MAS26 has set the bar very, very high for feel and response. I need to compare the two a bit more, but I don't think the TC is quite as responsive. Plugging one port seems to help a bit. I'll experiment more tomorrow in a bigger room. That should make it easier to compare the deep bass response.
I still have a few questions about the TC112v1. I bought this cab under the (somewhat mistaken) impression that it could pull double duty as a PA speaker, but after digging through this thread further, it turns out that the power handling of the compression driver is a bit low for that. So my question is, should I be concerned about damaging the compression driver if I do use it for PA? What actions/instruments/EQ settings should I avoid? I'm sure it'll be fine at low to moderate volumes. But what about specific instruments? I'm certainly not planning to put drums through it, but I'd like to be able to run voice and acoustic instruments through it (guitar, violin, banjo, and accordion). I have no idea what sounds/instruments put the most stress on a compression driver.
I do plan on emailing Duke soon, but I'm holding off for now since it sounds like he's swamped lately and, frankly, my concerns aren't urgent.
I do plan on emailing Duke soon, but I'm holding off for now since it sounds like he's swamped lately and, frankly, my concerns aren't urgent.
Thanks, all. That's helpful and informative.
Just looking at the numbers on the 12" vs. 15" woofer Hathor cabs, the 15 is at 98 dB/W/m while the 12 is 94 dB (two stacked, you'd expect 97 dB + some bass reinforcement). Power handling is 500 Watts for the 12s and 15s alike.
Running up to 500 Watts, it would seem that the 15 should be as loud as -- maybe even a bit louder than -- the stacked 12s. The stack will handle twice the power, though, so should pull ahead with a "bigger" amp. I believe that Duke said, awhile back, in comparing the 212 to the 15" cabs, that the 212 would hit harder, by virtue of having two motors (I think that the 12" and 15" woofers use the same motor, but don't quote me on that) rather than one.
I also wondered if, apart from voicing and volume, the 15 might have a different feel than the 12. The stock 3012LF and 3015LF differ in some parameters (Qts, notably) but 1) Duke uses a custom driver for the 15" Hathors and, 2) even if he didn't, I don't know enough about how the different driver parameters interact or about Duke's design to say anything aside from that I'm sure that Duke's taken all those factors well into account.
I haven't played the 15s and am not Duke, so take all that for what it's worth.
All very good observations. Just one thing, I believe Duke's custom 15" is closest to the KappaLite 3015 non-LF.
Edit: I think you'll also find that the 212 will move almost twice as much air as the 115.
Good to know about the OD through the TC.
The v1 Thunderchild has two ports on the back, correct? My earlier Hathor 1203 has one -- it's either plugged or open. I'm a bit of an articulation freak, so I often run it sealed, thought it sounds a bit more open, deep, and pretty with the port open -- it will also handle a bigger room more easily, that way.
The Changeling 112 has three small ports (as do the more recent Hathor cabs), so there are four options for tuning the cab. My understanding (@Passinwind or any other knowledgeable folks, please feel free to correct me) is that, as you plug ports, you'll progressively lower the tuning frequency of the cab, which lowers the range of frequencies over which you get contribution from the port (with zero port contribution when they're all plugged, obviously).
The effects (as I understand them) of progressively plugging the ports (reducing both volume and cross-sectional area) will be "cleaner" (and, arguably, more responsive) bass, but less of it and somewhat reduced power-handling, overall, in the low register (though, because the tuning frequency is lower, the cab will help control the driver lower, too -- so, it depends on the signal you're feeding the cab -- like how you have your HPF set -- and too-high a tuning in a ported cab will be disadvantageous for low register power-handling).
The nuances of this can be expounded upon by folks more knowledgeable than I, but the upshot is that I think this is why I'm digging the Changeling with 1 port open and a little bit of bass boost to compensate for the gentle roll-off that occurs. As I mentioned earlier, I haven't had the Changeling out of the house yet, so we'll see how this plays out when the cab gets to see the world a bit and play with others.
The frequency response of the MAS cabs is affected by driver selection, cab volume and the way they're "tuned" (in quotes because I don't understand whether they are, in fact, tuned to a specific frequency the way a ported cab is) but, as far as I understand, they don't de-load the driver in the same way below a given frequency -- I'm reaching back in my memory to old conversations with Mike and old posts from the MAS threads, so definitely don't quote me on that, but their feel and response, to me (at least when they're in their happy place and "vortexing") more closely approximates that of a sealed cab than a ported cab. As with sealed and ported cabs, the MAS cabs vary in frequency response and how "loose" or "tight" they feel, but the quality of the bass seems more akin to what I'd expect from a sealed cab.
I'd be interested to play through an Acme cab sometime -- from what I've read of them, leaving one port open on the AK cabs might in some ways approximate the behavior of the low-tuned Acmes -- but I haven't played those and am largely speculating at this point.
Anyway, I'd experiment with one port open on your TC and with where you have your bass control and HPF set -- whether you approximate the response of the 26 or not, I bet you'll be able to get something you dig.
As for violin and acoustic guitar, there was someone with a TC 118 or 115, awhile back, whose wife was a violinist and played through the cab regularly -- I don't know how hard she pushed it. I wouldn't think that acoustic guitar would be problematic, but sustained sounds with a lot of high-frequency content might stress the driver more -- distorted guitar, synth keys... maybe violin? Not sure.
I believe that Duke did build a TC variant with a beefed-up compression driver for someone looking to use it as a double-duty bass cab/PA, but he'd be able to tell you more about that (and the risks associated with PA use) than I.
^^^ I really need to get outside more.
I think that the AK player whose s.o. plays violin is @Selta (apologies if I've mistaken you for someone else).
Interesting. I was just going by the numbers given for sensitivity and power-handling...
The Vd for the 3015HO is similar to that of the 3012LF (yay, DuckDuckGo)... if the Vd on Duke's 15 is similar (which I don't know), then you're right, as far as I can see, about the amount of air each cab can move. Does the 2 or 3 extra dB you'd get from the 2x12 at 1000 Watts (vs. the 1x15 at 500) account for all that extra air moved?
[Struggles to recall 9th grade physics...] Okay, KE = mv^2... if power is directly proportional(?) to kinetic energy and moving twice the air means moving twice the mass of air... but, wait, the mass of the cone is constant and much greater than that of the air... and we're not moving twice as much air in terms of mass...
Oy.
Actually, the above struggle aside, twice as much air moved for another ~3 dB makes sense. You'd expect two cabs to move twice as much air as one of the same, and doubling cabs gives ~3 dB more sound overall (unless I'm somehow misremembering that, too).
Did I mention that I need to get outside more?
Incidentally, if anyone would like me to design their next cab, that'll be $50. Paid in advance. And by "design" I mean strictly the cosmetic part. And by that, I mean stickers (I'll pick the stickers -- materials cost, procurement, and sticker application will be on you, as will the "cab" part.)
Thank ewe. You've all been great.
I'll show myself out.
I think that the AK player whose s.o. plays violin is @Selta (apologies if I've mistaken you for someone else).
Interesting. I was just going by the numbers given for sensitivity and power-handling...
The Vd for the 3015HO is similar to that of the 3012LF (yay, DuckDuckGo)... if the Vd on Duke's 15 is similar (which I don't know), then you're right, as far as I can see, about the amount of air each cab can move. Does the 2 or 3 extra dB you'd get from the 2x12 at 1000 Watts (vs. the 1x15 at 500) account for all that extra air moved?
[Struggles to recall 9th grade physics...] Okay, KE = mv^2... if power is directly proportional(?) to kinetic energy and moving twice the air means moving twice the mass of air... but, wait, the mass of the cone is constant and much greater than that of the air... and we're not moving twice as much air in terms of mass...
Oy.
Actually, the above struggle aside, twice as much air moved for another ~3 dB makes sense. You'd expect two cabs to move twice as much air as one of the same, and doubling cabs gives ~3 dB more sound overall (unless I'm somehow misremembering that, too).
Did I mention that I need to get outside more?
Incidentally, if anyone would like me to design their next cab, that'll be $50. Paid in advance. And by "design" I mean strictly the cosmetic part. And by that, I mean stickers (I'll pick the stickers -- materials cost, procurement, and sticker application will be on you, as will the "cab" part.)
Thank ewe. You've all been great.
I'll show myself out.
I use a pair of TC112v4s. The crossover is a bit tweaked from earlier versions but the main difference is that the v4 has the same beefier compression driver as the TC115. He did this to make the v4 more usable for keyboards and as a light-duty PA speaker. I play keyboard and program music through them at home (and they sound superb), but have only played bass through it while playing out (so far).
I used to run a pair of TC112v1s, but only for bass. I think the v1s would be suitable at lower volumes for voice and acoustic instruments, but Duke would be the one to weigh in on this.
Also, I'm pretty sure @Passinwind uses a TC112v1 for voice and multiple instruments. He would be able to give you the scoop on that.
Hope that helps (a little),
Bob
I used to run a pair of TC112v1s, but only for bass. I think the v1s would be suitable at lower volumes for voice and acoustic instruments, but Duke would be the one to weigh in on this.
Also, I'm pretty sure @Passinwind uses a TC112v1 for voice and multiple instruments. He would be able to give you the scoop on that.
Hope that helps (a little),
Bob
