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AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...
- Thread starter Thor
- Start date
Question for Duke (or anyone with experience here) regarding minimum wattage needed to drive a cab.
It'll be a TC115-8. I'll normally be using about 500 watts. But is there a minimum wattage that the cab needs to sound good? So if I plug in my 120 watt backup amp, will it sound as good as the 500 watts only quieter or will that not be enough to get things moving?
It'll be a TC115-8. I'll normally be using about 500 watts. But is there a minimum wattage that the cab needs to sound good? So if I plug in my 120 watt backup amp, will it sound as good as the 500 watts only quieter or will that not be enough to get things moving?
No, it is just a matter of how loud you need to go. If you can wump 500 watts into 8ohm, that should be literally perfect. With 120 watts into that big 8ohm driver, it might sound a bit more thin when you start to push it, but no problem.
These cabs are definitely a bit lower efficiency than the typical box (which is one of the reasons Duke original spec'd that OEM 4ohm 3015LF.... nice way to raise the sensitivity and keep to a single driver in a relatively small cab). For example, I can not, in any way, get either my Glock or TH500 clip lights to come on with my CN212. At the same volume, those heads both start flickering the clip ight at the loudest clips with the 4ohm TC115 I gigged for a while. Of course, there was more true low end coming out, hence the greater power consumption.
Anyway, zero issue with the backup IMO.
I've cranked a 30W Mesa guitar amp into my 4 ohm TC112 for low volume bass sounds. Sounded great, no issues.
I have found the idea that low wattage amps can't function with high end speakers to be a myth.
I was pairing small tube amps with high-end JBL and E-V 15's back in the early 70's, and I've never had a problem. My TC112 sounds awesome with my MB200, right up until the amp starts to lose composure.
I was pairing small tube amps with high-end JBL and E-V 15's back in the early 70's, and I've never had a problem. My TC112 sounds awesome with my MB200, right up until the amp starts to lose composure.
Don't confuse 'hi end' (i.e., expensive) with low efficiency and or sensitivity. Two very different things (those JBL loaded cabs were super efficient back in the day... of course, they didn't have near the performance as today's drivers, but they sure sounded good and could crank with low power for sure). One of Duke's goals with the original TC cabs, with the 4ohm custom OEM versions of the 3012LF and 3015LF drivers was to increase efficiency over the stock versions a bit by tightening the tuning of the driver (and allowing it to work in a smaller box optimally), and to increase sensitivity by having a 4ohm version developed, which allows you to reach optimum output with the typical 400-600 watt into 4ohms amp. Pretty slick.
However, even the 4 ohm OEM drivers (much less the cabs that use the stock LF 8ohm drivers) take more wattage to reach equivalent volume as a more typical bass cab with more full range drivers (i.e., not using drivers really developed for subwoofer PA applications).
Every design decision results in positives/negatives. Quite frankly, there are SO many affordable high powered micro amp options these days, that if you are going to spend $1,000+ on a cab, I would just make sure to get an amp that actually can make use of cab in an optimal way.
This will be a little more difficult to do with the single 8ohms TC versions.
+1 though, if you play at soft volumes, tonally you will be fine, although even at moderate volumes, you wll slam a typical amp into its limiting on peak transients more with these cabs than many others (i.e., in your words above, better to have an amp that 'won't lose composure' at a much earlier level than the massive LF driver will).
+1 It seems very counterproductive to by a cabinet that will do 500 watts, and drive it with an amplifier that will only give you 200 watts, considering how many great, and affordable micro amps are being built, that typically produce 500 watts. The Mark Bass Big Bang can be had for a song, if you pay attention to GC discounts and coupons. I had one at the house last winter and outside of it not having two channels, it works well with either DB or EB. While I'm certainly not advocating that anyone go out and buy a Walter Woods Ultra, because of their price, and possible repair turnaround issues, there is a distinct advantage, to having an amplifier that has a power rating into 8 ohms. Headroom is a good thing IME, IMHO. The MB200 does have a great EQ section for Double Bass, and is possibly the smallest amp around weight and size, but I'd prefer to have a little more headroom to work with. Just my take.
Ric
+1 Especially given that these LF loaded cabs are among the few where the thermal power rating is pretty much the same as the mechanical power usage capability. It can actually USE a good, solid 500 or 600 watts, and even at lower volumes, that will result in a more dynamic 'feel' from the rig, with zero compression when digging in and varying volume/touch with technique!
Of course, that is a bit of a double edge sword, since if you are really cranking massive power into them (1000 watts or whatever), the cab will continue to sound quite good right up to the point where you melt the voice coil!
Fortunately, for me, playing an DB, with a pickup or microphone, I'll be in extreme feedback land, way before this happened.
Ric
That was my point.
I used to use a second-generation Acme B2 with an SWR Studio 220 for small acoustic gigs. Something like 130 watts, driving the world's least efficient speaker cabinet.
It wouldn't play loud enough to keep up with even a quiet drummer, but it sounded very good as long as you accepted it's limits.
There's a popular misconception out there that a low-powered amp won't drive a low-efficiency heavy duty driver, and that it will either be unable to make the driver move at all, or that it will damage the amp. I just heard a salesman at a big-box music store explaining that to a customer last week, and it's ridiculous.
That depends on where you work.
I drive my 4 ohm TC112 with either an MB200 or an MB800, always for electric bass.
I use the 800 at all gigs that involve acoustic drums. Sounds great, and the extra headroom pleases me, although I have to exercise some restraint to avoid frying the cab.
But when I play house concerts or at nursing homes, modulating the gain on the 800 can get a bit tricky, even with the pad engaged.
For those situations, the 200 is perfect. I find that it sounds at least as good at really low levels, and it's easier to adjust the single volume control, because the amp has so much less gain.
As a nice bonus, it shaves off even more weight during load-in.
Very true as each playing situation has different requirements
I so something similar only with two different Walter Woods Amps, a MI-400-8 and the Walter Woods Ultra. For my smallest gigs, in places with really tight spaces I have a
Headway EDB-1 and a QSC K8. Mind you I'm not advocating that bassists run out and buy a Woods, that just happens to be what I ended up with over the years.
We definitely have the same concerns here as the Woods Ultra produces 1,000 watts at 4 ohms. Caution is the better part is common sense after all.
True enough, with one exception, my older Woods MI-400-8 can give me full tonal range, at very low volumes. Mostly because of the EQ section, but partially because it has lots of headroom at 400 watts. In combination it's very effective.
In those instances, I opt for a little different approach using the Headway EDB-1 and QSC K8. By using a much smaller powered cabinet, with a dedicated pre amp. The unit works well with either DB or 4 string EB as long as there's no slap and pop required. 5 String requires a different small cabinet.
Small, light, and effective is what were all after.
Ric
Another nice thing about those MB200s is the size and shape - they fit neatly in the pocket of a gig bag. That form factor is hard to top. And I can see if you'd sunk most of your money in a nice cab and bigger amp and had just a little left over for a practice amp or small gig amp, that would be very compelling.
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Thanks guys for helping out with the microphone placement question and the small amp question! I'm embarrassingly under-qualified to respond to either.
LeonD's first-of-its-kind TC115-8 will be shipping out on Tuesday, to coordinate with his schedule. I've enjoyed having it here a few extra days - usually it's build it test it pack it ship it.
The TC115-8 uses the stock Kappalite 3015 (non-LF) woofer, which has good efficiency and good extension up into the midrange but trades off the monster low-end of its LF sibling, though the non-LF is pretty tight with two of the ports plugged. Alongside that cab in my living room right now is a little TC112-8, which uses the Kappalite 3012LF. Well in this case the smaller cab has deeper bass, inevitably trading off efficiency to get there. Okay that's the background.
So my wife comes into the living room while I'm switching back and forth between the cabs, and wants to know why the cab with the smaller woofer has deeper bass. So I launch into a quick overview of T/S parameters. She listens very patiently and then neatly sums it up for me:
"So what you're trying to tell me is, size doesn't matter."
Baby, I've been tryin' to tell you that for the past eleven years!
LeonD's first-of-its-kind TC115-8 will be shipping out on Tuesday, to coordinate with his schedule. I've enjoyed having it here a few extra days - usually it's build it test it pack it ship it.
The TC115-8 uses the stock Kappalite 3015 (non-LF) woofer, which has good efficiency and good extension up into the midrange but trades off the monster low-end of its LF sibling, though the non-LF is pretty tight with two of the ports plugged. Alongside that cab in my living room right now is a little TC112-8, which uses the Kappalite 3012LF. Well in this case the smaller cab has deeper bass, inevitably trading off efficiency to get there. Okay that's the background.
So my wife comes into the living room while I'm switching back and forth between the cabs, and wants to know why the cab with the smaller woofer has deeper bass. So I launch into a quick overview of T/S parameters. She listens very patiently and then neatly sums it up for me:
"So what you're trying to tell me is, size doesn't matter."
Baby, I've been tryin' to tell you that for the past eleven years!
Hey Duke! I forgot that you are now using the HO in your 15. That is a wonderful, beautiful sounding driver. I LOVE that driver... plenty usable bass, and midrange, thank god, midrange that sounds beautiful (i.e., that upper bass and mid mid presence that slots a bass so nicely in a mix, and kind of vibes the 'post mastering' tone that is desired and achieved on so many great recordings). Combine that with your crossover, that is going to be killer. And, the 8ohm HO should be about the same sensitivity as your original 4ohm OEM LF. Cool!
And I'll be kicking that driver in the behind with a GK MB800 in nine days. I can't wait for my next gig.
