AudioKinesis Cabs V!!!!

[Mike Arnopol]

One thing I have to be honest about---there is very little difference between the composite and wood besides weight. If you A/B the two you might hear a slight difference in mid and upper bass clarity with the composite but on the gig---I doubt anyone would hear a difference.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

very interesting! I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to more details about this one [the 8-ohm TC115-class cab].

I wanted to find an off-the-shelf 8-ohm woofer that would be competitive with the mighty Kappalite 3015LF, but would go up high enough smooth enough that I could do a two-way with a big PA-style horn.

My search led to an 18" neodymium woofer that is unusually smooth and extended on top, along with about 23% greater air-moving capability than the 3015LF. My modelling program says it will go 2 dB louder than the 3015LF, based on either thermal or mechanical limits.

I had to push the crossover point down lower than any of my other horn-slingin' bass cabs, so I'm using a different horn and compression driver from the TC115. The "voicing" of the cab bears a strong family resemblance to the rest of the Thunderchild line.

I expect the TC118 to encounter some resistance in the marketplace because a lot of bass players don't like 18's, but this isn't the 18 of yesteryear, especially with a good bighorn and a decent crossover. The low end will lean towards the "tight" end of the spectrum, with the emphasis on pitch definition rather than maximum extension. Sorta like the low end on the Hathor 1544 cab.

TalkBass member staindbass's avatar used to show a stack of custom 18" + bighorn cabs that Ampeg built to his specs, so what I'm doing here has been done before and done well, but I don't think it's been offered commercially.

 

[babebambi]

This spells trouble for my bank account ...

I wanted to find an off-the-shelf 8-ohm woofer that would be competitive with the mighty Kappalite 3015LF, but would go up high enough smooth enough that I could do a two-way with a big PA-style horn.

My search led to an 18" neodymium woofer that is unusually smooth and extended on top, along with about 23% greater air-moving capability than the 3015LF. My modelling program says it will go 2 dB louder than the 3015LF, based on either thermal or mechanical limits.

I had to push the crossover point down lower than any of my other horn-slingin' bass cabs, so I'm using a different horn and compression driver from the TC115. The "voicing" of the cab bears a strong family resemblance to the rest of the Thunderchild line.

I expect the TC118 to encounter some resistance in the marketplace because a lot of bass players don't like 18's, but this isn't the 18 of yesteryear, especially with a good bighorn and a decent crossover. The low end will lean towards the "tight" end of the spectrum, with the emphasis on pitch definition rather than maximum extension. Sorta like the low end on the Hathor 1544 cab.

TalkBass member staindbass's avatar used to show a stack of custom 18" + bighorn cabs that Ampeg built to his specs, so what I'm doing here has been done before and done well, but I don't think it's been offered commercially.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Duke:

I had a little bit of time to play through the Hathor today (working on bustin' out issue #9, which is taking up most of my free time), and I definitely hear the one switch doing what you describe, above. Is the other switch doing more of the same, or is it turning the mids completely off? If it is, that woofer has some pretty high extension!

Very interesting, very cool, cab, so far...

Thank you sir!! I appreciate your taking the time when the editor is breathing down your neck about issue #9... oh wait... nevermind.

Okay, the top switch affects the output of the two mids, and toggles between maximum top-end energy, and reduced top-end energy, but the mids are still active even with the switch down, just not as loud. (I'm calling them "mids" but they're billed by the manufacturer as "fullrange" drivers, with a claimed 20 kHz top end, but I think that number is unduly optimistic.)

The bottom switch affects the top end of the woofer, and toggles between maximum midrange energy (woofer running wide open) and "smoothed" midrange (woofer's top end smoothed out a bit).

The "hi-fi-est" setting would be top switch up, bottom switch down. That might work for double bass, but won't have quite the top-end articulation of the horn that I use in the Thunderchild cabs.

While the 15" woofer that I use here (the Faital 15PR400) has very nice top end for a borderline uberwoofer, it still benefits significantly from the contribution of the midrange drivers, assuming that's the sound you want.

Again, thank you for squeezing some time into your busy schedule.

 

[tombowlus]

Thank you sir!! I appreciate your taking the time when the editor is breathing down your neck about issue #9... oh wait... nevermind.

Okay, the top switch affects the output of the two mids, and toggles between maximum top-end energy, and reduced top-end energy, but the mids are still active even with the switch down, just not as loud. (I'm calling them "mids" but they're billed by the manufacturer as "fullrange" drivers, with a claimed 20 kHz top end, but I think that number is unduly optimistic.)

The bottom switch affects the top end of the woofer, and toggles between maximum midrange energy (woofer running wide open) and "smoothed" midrange (woofer's top end smoothed out a bit).

The "hi-fi-est" setting would be top switch up, bottom switch down. That might work for double bass, but won't have quite the top-end articulation of the horn that I use in the Thunderchild cabs.

While the 15" woofer that I use here (the Faital 15PR400) has very nice top end for a borderline uberwoofer, it still benefits significantly from the contribution of the midrange drivers, assuming that's the sound you want.

Again, thank you for squeezing some time into your busy schedule.

Awesome! Thanks for the info!

 

[KJung]

One thing I have to be honest about---there is very little difference between the composite and wood besides weight. If you A/B the two you might hear a slight difference in mid and upper bass clarity with the composite but on the gig---I doubt anyone would hear a difference.

That is actually a very good thing. Losing weight with no 'tonal cost' is a VERY good thing IMO.

 

[engedi1]

That is actually a very good thing. Losing weight with no 'tonal cost' is a VERY good thing IMO.

Yep! I can't tell you enough how much I love load in from the car with my bass in one hand, amp bag slung over my shoulder, and my 450 watt 115 cab carried in the OTHER HAND! And that other hand isn't tired or hurting when I put the cab down. A great achievement Duke and Mike! It weighs less than one of my old beloved Aguilar Gs112 and handles a hugely more amount of volume. Incredible!

 

[anderbass]

Hathor 1544:

The "hi-fi-est" setting would be top switch up, bottom switch down. That might work for double bass, but won't have quite the top-end articulation of the horn that I use in the Thunderchild cabs.

Cool, you'd explained that to me before but I wasn't paying attention, so I've been kinda wondering about that too. I just double checked the position of those 2 switches on my Hathor 1544, and after several gigs thats exactly where I've ended up preferring them set: bottom toggle down, top toggle up.

Besides the horn vs 2x4' midrange drivers, I've been kinda wondering what the other major differences are between the TC115 and the Hathor 1544 models?

____________

PS:
I'm thinking about installing an (over the shoulder type) carry strap on my Hathor 1544. I'm considering using one of my old (wide) straps made for bass guitars, and simply attaching it to one of the cabs handle mounting screws on each side, and choosing whichever screws offer the most balanced location.

My question for you is: Is there a T-nut (or some other strong type of speed-nut) inside the cab, or do those handles simply have wood screws that are screwed directly into plywood on my Hathor cab?

I've been toting my Hathor over to one of my drummers home studio for band rehearsals lately. I have a long walk from my car, plus up the stairs to his second-story studio.

While I consider my my Hathor to be a super lightweight cab, I also think a carry-strap option might be a cool thing for you to offer... Have you ever considered offering this as an option?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Besides the horn vs 2x4' midrange drivers, I've been kinda wondering what the other major differences are between the TC115 and the Hathor 1544 models?

The target for the Thunderchild cabs was, as "true to the input signal" as reasonably feasible, over a fairly wide horizontal arc. The target for the Hathor cab was, more of a traditional bass cab voicing but with better articulation and disperson than most.

The Hathor 1544 it tuned a bit tighter in the bottom end than the "stock" Thunderchild tunings. The Thunderchild cabs can be tightened up with the port plugs, but that's not what the internal damping is optimized for, like it is on the Hathor cab. The Thunderchild cabs are more articulate on top, while the Hathor cab puts a bit more emphasis on the midrange region. Standing very close to the cab, that open format midchamber on the Hathor makes it easier to hear what's going on. The Hathor cab is a little bit more efficient than the TC115, but theoretically handles a bit less power, so their max SPL is probably very similar.

Also unlike the current Thunderchild lineup, the Hathor 1544 is available in either 4 or 8 ohms.

Is there a T-nut (or some other strong type of speed-nut) inside the cab, or do those handles simply have wood screws that are screwed directly into plywood on my Hathor cab?

The screws do go into T-nuts, and then the entire handle is gorilla-glued in place to make it very solid. So the handles are permanantly attached to the cabinet. I don't know what would happen if you tried to remove one of the screws and then replace it; if it binds going in either direction, you'll spin the T-nut and have a potentially major problem.

I would strongly suggest installing independent attachment points for any sort of carrying strap, and you'd probably want to intall big washers or a backer board of some kind inside the box to spread the load a bit.

 

[KJung]

The target for the Thunderchild cabs was, as "true to the input signal" as reasonably feasible, over a fairly wide horizontal arc. The target for the Hathor cab was, more of a traditional bass cab voicing but with better articulation and disperson than most.

The Hathor 1544 it tuned a bit tighter in the bottom end than the "stock" Thunderchild tunings. The Thunderchild cabs can be tightened up with the port plugs, but that's not what the internal damping is optimized for, like it is on the Hathor cab. The Thunderchild cabs are more articulate on top, while the Hathor cab puts a bit more emphasis on the midrange region. Standing very close to the cab, that open format midchamber on the Hathor makes it easier to hear what's going on. The Hathor cab is a little bit more efficient than the TC115, but theoretically handles a bit less power, so their max SPL is probably very similar.

Hey Duke. Seems like a great design, and your post above is a good way to put it. As you know from our (and I'm sure others) discussions, that 'pure studio monitor' vibe of the Thunderchild cabs, with virtually NO audible break-up or distortion in the lower mids or upper mids (growl and grind in the bassist terminology) is a wonderful thing, but not for everyone.

The idea of a cab that sounds more like a traditional bass cab (i.e., a bit rougher in general, a bit of upper midrange break-up, and a few 'midrange peaks' in the voicing) can be a wonderful thing, especially in a two way system that still allows full bass and a bit wider upper midrange/grind dispersion across the stage. Very nice. Roger Baer is kind of in this tonal space with his ML112 also. Nice options!

 

[kringle77]

Yeah, the Hathor 1512 is the most interesting design that I have seen in a long time and Im thinking it would hit that sweet spot for bassplayers of sounding like a great bass cab but, still getting the benefits of better dispersion and power handling.

 

[rpsands]

Cool, you'd explained that to me before but I wasn't paying attention, so I've been kinda wondering about that too. I just double checked the position of those 2 switches on my Hathor 1544, and after several gigs thats exactly where I've ended up preferring them set: bottom toggle down, top toggle up.

Besides the horn vs 2x4' midrange drivers, I've been kinda wondering what the other major differences are between the TC115 and the Hathor 1544 models?

______

I have a 4 ohm TC115 and would be happy to cart it over to your place sometime so you could a/b them. I spent a lot of time with them right next to each other moving cables around.

Overall, I think the TC115 has a bit more booty, bit more top end, and smoother sound. It feels like it can get a little bit louder all around but isn't quite as sensitive with lower power.

 

[Chef]

yep.
That Duke, he's always thinking, and the end results always seem to be pretty nice.
__________________

Yeah, the Hathor 1512 is the most interesting design that I have seen in a long time and Im thinking it would hit that sweet spot for bassplayers of sounding like a great bass cab but, still getting the benefits of better dispersion and power handling.

 

[astack]

While I consider my my Hathor to be a super lightweight cab, I also think a carry-strap option might be a cool thing for you to offer... Have you ever considered offering this as an option?

+1 Lightweight cabs are still a bit cumbersome to move long distances if they're not ultra small, too. It's awesome we're getting to the point that the thought of slinging a cab over your shoulder is more desirable than tilt-back wheels.

I looked into ALICE-style straps and frames to get a cab on my back. Only need bungees or if you've got a case/bag, you can catch handles/D-rings. Could fit multiple cabs. Could even strap them onto a lightweight folding cart for the best of all worlds.

Sounds ridiculous as first, but it'd actually look less ridiculous than an upright on your back

 

[anderbass]

The target for the Thunderchild cabs was, as "true to the input signal" as reasonably feasible, over a fairly wide horizontal arc. The target for the Hathor cab was, more of a traditional bass cab voicing but with better articulation and disperson than most.

The Hathor 1544 it tuned a bit tighter in the bottom end than the "stock" Thunderchild tunings. The Thunderchild cabs can be tightened up with the port plugs, but that's not what the internal damping is optimized for, like it is on the Hathor cab. The Thunderchild cabs are more articulate on top, while the Hathor cab puts a bit more emphasis on the midrange region. Standing very close to the cab, that open format midchamber on the Hathor makes it easier to hear what's going on. The Hathor cab is a little bit more efficient than the TC115, but theoretically handles a bit less power, so their max SPL is probably very similar.

Also unlike the current Thunderchild lineup, the Hathor 1544 is available in either 4 or 8 ohms.



The screws do go into T-nuts, and then the entire handle is gorilla-glued in place to make it very solid. So the handles are permanantly attached to the cabinet. I don't know what would happen if you tried to remove one of the screws and then replace it; if it binds going in either direction, you'll spin the T-nut and have a potentially major problem.

I would strongly suggest installing independent attachment points for any sort of carrying strap, and you'd probably want to intall big washers or a backer board of some kind inside the box to spread the load a bit.

Cool thanks fer the info Duke, and good Idea for mounting my strap! That way I'll be able to use the best possible balance-point, instead of compromising.

Yeah, the Hathor 1512 is the most interesting design that I have seen in a long time and Im thinking it would hit that sweet spot for bassplayers of sounding like a great bass cab but, still getting the benefits of better dispersion and power handling.

I've been following some of yer cab-mod threads, and I got a very strong feeling you would totally dig the Hathor!

I have a 4 ohm TC115 and would be happy to cart it over to your place sometime so you could a/b them. I spent a lot of time with them right next to each other moving cables around.

Overall, I think the TC115 has a bit more booty, bit more top end, and smoother sound. It feels like it can get a little bit louder all around but isn't quite as sensitive with lower power.

Yes we should definetly do something like that.

I realise you briefly tried it out again at the Phoenix GTG, but you never got a chance to actually gig the Hathor after Duke did his final rounds of mods. (plus you didnt get a chance to try the Hathor w/your Hexavalve) As far as I'm concerned, my Hathor is WAY better now than when you were beta testing/closely-comparing it to your TC115.

Comparing cabs while playing solo is all well and fine, but maybe we could figure out a way so we could both A/B our cabs at a live-gig with our bands. (like at a smaller venue without P/A support) Cause again, as far as I'm concerned thats the only side by side comparison that trully maters to me...

I was thinking this test would be best If both our bands were sharing the same bill sometime. If your interested, I'll try to find an upcoming gig that we could add you guys to the bill. And if you want, you could do the same and try to book either of my bands in one of your gigs. I was thinking we could each play half a set with each others cabs, and then the other half with our own...

Sound good?

PS:
I just racked up a (fairly high-end) mobile recorder I'll be using with a good pair of SDC-mics and preamps, I plan on bringing this to some gigs for live stereo-recordings burnt direct to disk. So I was thinking we could also record our gigs performances to kinda help out the comparisons... Because sometimes what you hear captured/recorded from out in the room during playback, Is completely different from your perception while standing/playing on stage...

 

[rpsands]

My band won't let me on stage with the single 15s anymore

But I could bring the TC115 to one of your shows sometime, maybe next time at the Icehouse or the like. Keep me in the loop

 

[Chef]

Whyzat?

My band won't let me on stage with the single 15s anymore

 

[Jazzdogg]

My band won't let me on stage with the single 15s anymore

But I could bring the TC115 to one of your shows sometime, maybe next time at the Icehouse or the like. Keep me in the loop

Say what? Why not?

 

[thudfromafar]

I've been using the MB800 with my TC112(AF).

This thing gets so loud, I'm amazed.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I've been using the MB800 with my TC112(AF).

This thing gets so loud, I'm amazed.

I've got the same pairing, and it's my dream rig. One-trip heaven...

My Streamliner 900 hasn't been out in months, and my fears that a single Thunderchild would be inadequate, turned out to be groundless.

I would still like a second TC112AF so I could run them in stereo, but without a real need for a second cab at gigs, I'm having trouble justifying the extra expense.