It kinda depends on your playing style and volume needs.... A 1.6k X over would be right for the way I play (not loud).
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Avatar SB112 with MID !!!!!! The SB126
- Thread starter topcat2069
- Start date
G-K head. Fender passive 4 string P. Classic Rock. Distortion, envelope filter, compressor. Pretty loud.
What do you think? Which drivers and cross-over. I haven't a clue. Where can I read the specs of his drivers?
My thought is to go with the 2.5K two-way crossover...not the 1.6K high pass filter. The woofer is going to handle the midrange frequencies up to that point much more robustly than the HPF would.
As for the woofer, take your pick. It's a question of taste. IMO, both the Delta 12 LF and Dave's proprietary version of the Deltalite II 2512 would do the job. As for the new Kappalite 3012 LF, that could obviously cut the mustard, but it's a question of how appropriate the voicing would be for classic rock. My own take on it is that I would prefer to use the 3012 LF in a more neutrally-voiced cabinet, for a more hi-fi "studio monitor" type of sound. But lots of players are rocking with them just fine.
FYI, specs are freely available for the Delta 12 LF and the Kappalite 3012 LF, because Dave uses the stock versions of those woofers, straight from the Eminence factory. The Deltalite II 2512 is Dave's own OEM version of that driver, which makes the specs different from the stock specs. AFAIK, Dave has never published those specs.
MM
Thanks, MM. Not sure.. This is why I don't like choices. I'm terrible at making them. This is why I don't build my own. I haven't a clue. I want what I will be happy with from the start, without thinking I made a mistake.
Any other info is great. I emailed Avatar to try to make sense of what the options offer me.
So this is what I could find about the 12" drivers.
This is the Delta-12LFA, which I assume is pretty close the the Avatar Delta-12LF. Same size magnet. Same power. Same claim to have extended Xmax for better bass. Thinking of the 1.6k and 2.5k cross-overs, wouldn't the 2.5k let that nasty volume spike at about 2.4k come through?
97 db.
http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-12LFA-1.htm
This is the Kappa Lite 3012LF. Big spike before it even gets to 2k, then drops out. Better with the 1.6k cross-over?
95.5 db.
http://www.usspeaker.com/kappalite3012lf-1.htm
The Faital PRO 12PR300 is pretty flat up to about 2k then loses it's composure. But no big spike like the Eminence drivers. Better with the 2.5k cross-over?
99 db.
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 12pr300-1.htm
I wonder about the specs on the 6" mid-driver.
On Avatar's TB 153 cab, the mid-driver comes in at 800 hz. Is this the same mid-driver as in the SB 126? If crossed over at 2.5k I imagine that mid would be pretty safe.
Eminence ceramic 6" drivers are here:
http://www.eminence.com/pro-audio/american-standard/?size=6#speakers
I'm thinking the Faital is the way to go. With the 2.5k cross-over.
Thoughts?
This is the Delta-12LFA, which I assume is pretty close the the Avatar Delta-12LF. Same size magnet. Same power. Same claim to have extended Xmax for better bass. Thinking of the 1.6k and 2.5k cross-overs, wouldn't the 2.5k let that nasty volume spike at about 2.4k come through?
97 db.
http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-12LFA-1.htm
This is the Kappa Lite 3012LF. Big spike before it even gets to 2k, then drops out. Better with the 1.6k cross-over?
95.5 db.
http://www.usspeaker.com/kappalite3012lf-1.htm
The Faital PRO 12PR300 is pretty flat up to about 2k then loses it's composure. But no big spike like the Eminence drivers. Better with the 2.5k cross-over?
99 db.
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 12pr300-1.htm
I wonder about the specs on the 6" mid-driver.
On Avatar's TB 153 cab, the mid-driver comes in at 800 hz. Is this the same mid-driver as in the SB 126? If crossed over at 2.5k I imagine that mid would be pretty safe.
Eminence ceramic 6" drivers are here:
http://www.eminence.com/pro-audio/american-standard/?size=6#speakers
I'm thinking the Faital is the way to go. With the 2.5k cross-over.
Thoughts?
The specs you found for the Delta 12LFA at US Speaker are not just close to the Avatar Delta. They are one in the same speaker. Yes, it has a volume spike between about 2K and 3K. But it's nicely flat up to that point. Considering its other virtues, I'd be prepared to flatten the volume spike with some EQ adjustment. Seems to be only around 3db or so. IMO, not that big a deal.
Performance of the Kappalite 3012LF is as I indicated previously (I'm pretty sure): More extension on the low end means a lower cut-off threshold in the midrange. So yes, this one needs a crossover set considerably lower than the values we've been discussing thus far. Even the 1.6K HPF may be too high for some tastes. Many of the fEARful/fEARless fans are using crossovers set @ around 800Hz - 1K.
Kind of a mixed bag on the Faital woofer. Main issue is the some 20-22db drop in off-axis vs. on-axis performance @ 2.5K - which qualifies as "nasty" in my book. Your call. Either deal with the frequency drop-off above 2K or opt for the 1.6K HPF
...although in all fairness, these charts don't even show the off-axis performance of the two Eminence woofers, for comparison's sake.
Yes, AFAIK the midrange driver for the SB126 is the same one Dave uses in the TB153.
MM
Performance of the Kappalite 3012LF is as I indicated previously (I'm pretty sure): More extension on the low end means a lower cut-off threshold in the midrange. So yes, this one needs a crossover set considerably lower than the values we've been discussing thus far. Even the 1.6K HPF may be too high for some tastes. Many of the fEARful/fEARless fans are using crossovers set @ around 800Hz - 1K.
Kind of a mixed bag on the Faital woofer. Main issue is the some 20-22db drop in off-axis vs. on-axis performance @ 2.5K - which qualifies as "nasty" in my book. Your call. Either deal with the frequency drop-off above 2K or opt for the 1.6K HPF
...although in all fairness, these charts don't even show the off-axis performance of the two Eminence woofers, for comparison's sake.
Yes, AFAIK the midrange driver for the SB126 is the same one Dave uses in the TB153.
MM
Thanks
Is that spike in the Eminence graph a good thing with some overdrive? Not really distorted. Just some dirt. I use a G-K head. The hi-mid knob is +6, -10 at 1k. Treble is at 7k.
I am very interested in getting a Whirlwind Bass 10 graphic EQ anyway.
It has controls for +, - 15db, and two are at 1.8k and 3k. That would really allow some tweaking of this cab, wouldn't it?
And that brings me to a graphic eq question now. Does a graphic eq like the Whirlwind cut out any sound above it's highest slider? 3k in the case of the Whirlwind. Is a parametric mid eq better for this application?
Thanks MM! Food for thought..
Is that spike in the Eminence graph a good thing with some overdrive? Not really distorted. Just some dirt. I use a G-K head. The hi-mid knob is +6, -10 at 1k. Treble is at 7k.
I am very interested in getting a Whirlwind Bass 10 graphic EQ anyway.
It has controls for +, - 15db, and two are at 1.8k and 3k. That would really allow some tweaking of this cab, wouldn't it?
And that brings me to a graphic eq question now. Does a graphic eq like the Whirlwind cut out any sound above it's highest slider? 3k in the case of the Whirlwind. Is a parametric mid eq better for this application?
Could be a good thing with some dirt. Hard to say in the abstract. Only way is to listen to it.
Yes, a 10-band graphic EQ would make for some pretty good tweaking of just about any cab. Probably way more than most players would ever need, though a parametric would allow for even more precise tweaking - the kind typically deployed for studio use. YMMV.
The amount of bandwidth that an EQ covers above and below a band's center point - its "Q" value - differs from one model to the next. It is the deciding factor to your question. If the Q value of your top band, the 3K band, is rather broad on the top end, then it might just cover the higher frequencies you have in mind. If not, then it won't. Of course it will also cut or boost all the other frequencies in that same band.
Paradoxically, the broader the Q value for a graphic EQ, and the more sonic territory it covers, the less effective it is for very precise cuts & boosts, though it may be voiced in a very musical way overall. The main advantage to a parametric EQ over a graphic EQ is that it allows one to broaden or narrow the bandwidth itself, while a graphic EQ does not.
MM
Yes, a 10-band graphic EQ would make for some pretty good tweaking of just about any cab. Probably way more than most players would ever need, though a parametric would allow for even more precise tweaking - the kind typically deployed for studio use. YMMV.
The amount of bandwidth that an EQ covers above and below a band's center point - its "Q" value - differs from one model to the next. It is the deciding factor to your question. If the Q value of your top band, the 3K band, is rather broad on the top end, then it might just cover the higher frequencies you have in mind. If not, then it won't. Of course it will also cut or boost all the other frequencies in that same band.
Paradoxically, the broader the Q value for a graphic EQ, and the more sonic territory it covers, the less effective it is for very precise cuts & boosts, though it may be voiced in a very musical way overall. The main advantage to a parametric EQ over a graphic EQ is that it allows one to broaden or narrow the bandwidth itself, while a graphic EQ does not.
MM
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Another graphic eq I think about is the Source Audio one.
http://www.sourceaudio.net/products/toolblox/programmable_eq.php
What happens to the sounds that are higher than the graphic eq's highest slider? Just curious. Couldn't find it when I looked.
Is the Empress a recommended parametric eq? I didn't see a lot of different ones when I searched.
It's funny how much having choices affects the decision process. This is much more involved than choosing between three cabs at Guitar Center. Hopefully I will get a response to my email to Avatar Monday. I will paste the info I get here.
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I've been in conversation with Dave regarding the 1k6 crossover he is offering as an option. He want me to post that it is the full 2 way1k6 crossover not the 1k6 HPF. I believe he will be using the cab ready version built on to eminences jack plate so that he doesn't have to try to retrofit it onto the Avatar jack plate.
Dave emailed me that whatever I pick will work. The Delta 12 LF if I'm not going to be using a lot of power. Kappalite 3012 if I'm going to hammer it. Cross-over, personal preference.
I responded: Please talk me out of the Faital if I'm wrong. I noted that the Greenboy Bassic 12 uses the Faital. So I asked about what he thinks about the Faital, with the 1.6k hz cross-over.
I understand that Faital 12 neo was used in the much-lauded Genz-Benz NeoX 212 cab, which received a lot of praise in these pages. Maybe I'm wrong...
My aim: Never exceeding 500 watts per cab. Classic rock. 4 string. No-detune. Distortion. Envelope filter. Compressor. SFX Thumpinator HPF.
Faital with 1.6k hz?? I have Benjamin's to give Dave. I want to buy before I buy pizza..
I responded: Please talk me out of the Faital if I'm wrong. I noted that the Greenboy Bassic 12 uses the Faital. So I asked about what he thinks about the Faital, with the 1.6k hz cross-over.
I understand that Faital 12 neo was used in the much-lauded Genz-Benz NeoX 212 cab, which received a lot of praise in these pages. Maybe I'm wrong...
My aim: Never exceeding 500 watts per cab. Classic rock. 4 string. No-detune. Distortion. Envelope filter. Compressor. SFX Thumpinator HPF.
Faital with 1.6k hz?? I have Benjamin's to give Dave. I want to buy before I buy pizza..
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That's peculiar. On the Avatar website, Dave listed the upcharge for the 1.6K crossover at $25 (he actually quoted me $50 previously, so maybe he's still working out the pricing). But US Speaker sells that crossover for about $95. How in the world can Dave offer it at $25 without losing his shirt (although he's now quoting a $30 upcharge for the SB126 as well, which he did not until now)? Even if he has a decent discount on it from Eminence, it couldn't possibly be that steep a discount.
MM
Having owned both the Genz Benz (2x) NeoX 212T and the newer, NX2 212T cabs, I think I'm correct in stating the NeoX cab has Eminence drivers, while the NX2 has the Faital drivers. I felt there were some tonal differences between the two cabs and still own the NX2. If that matters to you.
I asked him twice if indeed that was the 1k6 crossover he would be offering for 25.00 and he confirmed.
Also 95.00 on the US Speaker is retail for one unit. As mentioned, Dave buys by the truckload and pays wholesale prices.
Very interesting stuff. Has anyone who has one chimed in on gig reports and how the 12/6 with the kappalite 3012 lf sounds in a real world environment?
The cab ready 1k6 two way crossover has been discontinued according to Dave. He will be offering the 2 way 1k6 retrofitted to his jack plate.
