Baer Amplification Megathread!

[rpsands]

Again, Jim also uses a proprietary driver, so this would not even be a Deltalite versus Kappalite comparison.

Proprietary or not there are limits to what the deltalite magnet and so on can do. You can change lots of stuff as an OEM, but things like making a deltalite as loud or handle as much power as a kappalite are typically not on the table.

You can see this by many examples of OEMs gone bad, like the Avatar "extended xmax" 12's - where they extend the Xmax but can't extend the Xlim, and sacrifice tons of midrange response to get it, dropping the overall sensitivity of the woofer.

Not saying anything derogatory about Berg, but there are things that aren't on the table.

* People need to seriously stop thinking that the designing a "custom" driver thing is magic. Please refer to all the threads with Roger, Duke and Bill talking about it.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Proprietary or not there are limits to what the deltalite magnet and so on can do.

+1. Only right now is Eminence introducing ceramic magnet drivers that come close to being able to do what the 3000 series can. Up until a few months ago they simply did not exist, in either off the shelf or OEM versions. And if it's a 2500 series neo driver with a 7 oz magnet it can't do what the 3000 series using 11 oz magnets can.

 

[rpsands]

The AE212 series is definitely 7oz magnets.

 

[KJung]

Proprietary or not there are limits to what the deltalite magnet and so on can do. You can change lots of stuff as an OEM, but things like making a deltalite as loud or handle as much power as a kappalite are typically not on the table.

You can see this by many examples of OEMs gone bad, like the Avatar "extended xmax" 12's - where they extend the Xmax but can't extend the Xlim, and sacrifice tons of midrange response to get it, dropping the overall sensitivity of the woofer.

Not saying anything derogatory about Berg, but there are things that aren't on the table.

* People need to seriously stop thinking that the designing a "custom" driver thing is magic. Please refer to all the threads with Roger, Duke and Bill talking about it.

This is why taking one or two specs and trying to estimate the performance of a cab is a bit of a losing game.

For those who have actually gigged these cabs, and also directly compared to other cabs, one quickly realizes that there is a lot more going on with some of these designs than one would think.

 

[rpsands]

I can tell you that Baer's sensitivity (He uses calculated numbers, not Bergantino's confusing method of adding 3db to 4ohm cabs) numbers and power handling numbers are impossible to hit with the Deltalite series magnets so far as I am aware. So sound quality, no comment. Overall volume I'm pretty confident speaking to.

Based on everything I've seen from Berg's cabs, his AE212 woofers are probably 97db calculated sensitivity. Figure that in with half the thermal handling and substantially less mechanical handling and you can say a lot.

 

[KJung]

I can tell you that Baer's sensitivity (He uses calculated numbers, not Bergantino's confusing method of adding 3db to 4ohm cabs) numbers and power handling numbers are impossible to hit with the Deltalite series magnets so far as I am aware. So sound quality, no comment. Overall volume I'm pretty confident speaking to.

Based on everything I've seen from Berg's cabs, his AE212 woofers are probably 97db calculated sensitivity. Figure that in with half the thermal handling and substantially less mechanical handling and you can say a lot.

I would again recommend that you actually play one

 

[rpsands]

I would again recommend that you actually play one

Whether I play them or not they're still not capable of breaking natural laws. I'm sure they sound great! But two ML112s will get a lot louder. Period. Nothing you say is going to change that

 

[B String]

+1 (although closer to the original Series I's with the more present upper mid response IMO). One of the way's I've described the ML112 in previous reviews is a great option for those players who like, but missed out on purchasing an original AE210 or AE112. However, the final version of these cabs (AE210, AE112) is a bit smoother up top like the AE212, due to the crossover modification. You can hear this in the comparison clip of my Series II AE210 versus the ML112 on my Youtube channel.

IMO, the closest cab out there to the ML112 is the original AE210, although the ML112 will have a more forceful low end.

For those who dig the AE410, two ML112's would be a great modular solution, and will give you just as much volume, all of that upper mid brightness, and a bit more true low end.

Edit: Also, a BIG +1 to the ML112 and the Streamliner. Even better than the Streamliner with the AE410!

I would have to agree with my steamed colleague. (lol)
One of the boxes I originally compared the ML112 to was in fact the AE210. Roger was looking for a very smooth transition from speaker to mid driver (or horn) like the Bergantino's often have, although the ML112 has a little wider, deeper low end than the AE210.
I've never been left wanting for low end with the ML112. One nice thing about the box is that it takes eq very well. Using a Genz 9.0 and adding a touch of low end on the amp gave me all the lows I needed for the gigs I took it on. Even outside.

And yes, I could also see the Streamliner 900 being a good match with the ML112.

 

[B String]

Whether I play them or not they're still not capable of breaking natural laws. I'm sure they sound great! But two ML112s will get a lot louder. Period. Nothing you say is going to change that

Just from my own experience, I would have to say the ML112 is louder than any other single 12 box I've used, while still having a "full" sound. I never even felt like I was near the limit of the ML112's volume capabilities on the gigs where I used it.

 

[KJung]

Just from my own experience, I would have to say the ML112 is louder than any other single 12 box I've used, while still having a "full" sound. I never even felt like I was near the limit of the ML112's volume capabilities on the gigs where I used it.

It is a wonderful box, and again, performs at what I call the 'super 12' level. +1.

 

[B String]

It is a wonderful box, and again, performs at what I call the 'super 12' level. +1.

Perhaps it really is possible that sometimes a piece of gear is better than the sum of its parts, like the Epi UL112/UL110 stack. Neither box is especially outstanding but the stack is a killer. I think two of these boxes with some power behind them could knock over small children. We should try it!!

 

[R Baer]

I can tell you that Baer's sensitivity (He uses calculated numbers, not Bergantino's confusing method of adding 3db to 4ohm cabs) numbers and power handling numbers are impossible to hit with the Deltalite series magnets so far as I am aware. So sound quality, no comment. Overall volume I'm pretty confident speaking to.

Based on everything I've seen from Berg's cabs, his AE212 woofers are probably 97db calculated sensitivity. Figure that in with half the thermal handling and substantially less mechanical handling and you can say a lot.

Couple quick notes here. Our numbers are calculated, but I also took BFM up on his standing offer to test our cab. If I was fudging numbers here, Bill would never let me get away with it.

I can't speak about Jim's drivers, but I can tell you I had Eminence sample us a OEM Deltalite with way back and it was a really, really good sounding driver and a bit more robust than an off the shelf version would be. For me, I choose a driver based on my personal tone preference and not necessarily the specs. The Deltalite had a decent bump around 100Hz and tapering mids, compared to our Kappalite. I preferred the sound of the Kappalite, but the Deltalite was certainly no slouch and would go very well with Tom's comparison of two ML112's and the AE212, although in my experience, the bigger 212 box will usually sound a bit bigger in the lows than two separate 112 cabs. I've also found the ML112 stack to sound a little fuller in the low end when stacked horizontally vs. vertically.

 

[OtisRocks]

... Our numbers are calculated, but I also took BFM up on his standing offer to test our cab. If I was fudging numbers here, Bill would never let me get away with it.

Glad to hear that you've done this. Will you be publishing Bill's results?

 

[bassjam]

Man to think all these years I was just playing through cabs that I liked the sound of and the way they sat in a live mix!I may need to sell my stuff and get some cabs with better specs!









Just Joking ya'll.

 

[tombowlus]

Ok someone please try the ML112 with an all tube amp (Tom B Im thinking you might be keen for this!)


And then please tell me it is not a good pairing so I dont have to buy another cab

I always stay away from ported cabs with my tube amps however all this talk of "tight and focused bottom end" may have me thinking in reverse

I had a little time to try the ML-112's with some tube heads last night before I packed them up to head off to band practice (that's another story...).

First up, I used my Pignose B-100v to drive both ML-112's. Man, this was a great, great matchup! The Baer cabs really help get the most out of the 100w Pignose, and the cabs sounded tight, clean, and loud right up to where the B-100v ran out of steam (which was pretty loud!). The B-100v is a relatively bright-n-tight amp, but with the bass cranked all the way (BTW, it's EQ does not seem overly power), it sounded pretty well balanced with the Baers.

Next, I grabbed my Traynor YBA-200. This head is also on the bright-n-tight side (for a tube head), though with a bit more growl/snarl than the Pignose. It wasn't much louder than the B-100v, but I didn't really spend much time trying to dial it in just right (the YBA-200 can take a little twiddling to get the ideal setup with a given instrument and cab(s)). Again, the ML-112's gave me no complaints and sounded great.

Finally, I tried the Reeves C225, which is one of my favorite all-tube heads. The C225 has stadium-rock lows, somewhat scooped mids, and beautiful, glassy highs with it's stock KT88's. Mine is loaded (and biased for) KT120's, which does bump up the power a bit, but more noticeably smooths out the dip in the mids a good bit. The lows and highs are still phenomenal - even more so, actually. Even with the massive lows that the Reeves can put out, the cones on the ML-112's seemed very controlled and not at all inclined to jump out of their baskets (behavior which I definitely have seen with some ported enclosures). Once again, I call it a good match. The Reeves just sounds great with any cab(s) that can handle it.

The big surprise for me was not that the ML-112's did so well with tube power (I thought they would do great), but rather just how good that Pignose sounded driving those cabs. Mine is the combo version, but I had the head out of the combo while I worked on the enclosure a little bit (just addressing the lack of TLC from a previous owner). I could see the head version (B-100vh) with two ML-112's being a great little rig!

I'll try some more tube heads later, but that's all I had time for last night.

 

[3rdcurve]

SO, it has been said that this is a great rock voiced cab. Where does the completely different voice come into play compared to the other mid loaded cabs? Is it more of a cab tuning deal, a higher crossover point, different mid, or a combination of these?

 

[rpsands]

Different mid, different crossover.

And the low end is probably tuned a little more toward the rock voice - more sensitivity, less sub lows than say a fEarful. Probably a more gradual low end rolloff too if the woofer has anything in common with the 3012HO it was spawned from.

 

[3rdcurve]

I don't want to ask Roger to give away any trade secrets, but would it be safe to say the M112s are crossed over considerably higher than 800Hz like the fearful/nearful 12/6s?

 

[R Baer]

SO, it has been said that this is a great rock voiced cab. Where does the completely different voice come into play compared to the other mid loaded cabs? Is it more of a cab tuning deal, a higher crossover point, different mid, or a combination of these?

Different mid, different crossover. And the low end is probably tuned a little more toward the rock voice - more sensitivity, less sub lows than say a fEarful. Probably a more gradual low end rolloff too if the woofer has anything in common with the 3012HO it was spawned from.

All these factors certainly come into play. Being an HO variant, the woofer has a prominent upper mid peak. The trick for us was letting just enough of that peak through to add clarity and definition, but not so much that the cab sounded harsh. Tuning was based on reports from guys testing the cabs telling me that the cab puts out plenty of low end, but that they would trade some of that deep low end for a bit more punch in the low end. That meant tuning the box up a bit. There's a balance to be had with having enough richness to your low end, but still feeling like the cabs are responsive and punchy under your fingers with good low end definition.

One thing to note, we have players using these cabs on gigs ranging from hard rock to pop to jazz and even Sunday worship. So, while players may tend to call a cab with prominent mids "rock voiced" the cabs seem to be working well for a wide variety of players with different styles, not just rock players.

 

[tombowlus]

Another fun story from last night, I used the WalkAbout and both ML-112's at band practice with my AC/DC cover band. The guitar players both play Marshall stacks, and they like to let 'em rip (even at practice - yes, hearing protection is in order!), and our drummer hits very hard. I had the WalkAbout's Gain just a tad more than noon and the Master around 1 o'clock, and I tell ya, I was keeping up just fine. Those cabs really make the most of the WalkAbout's output section, and I think I could probably gig that rig at any of the venues I play. The tone was also great, of course.