California to cut prison population

[IconBasser]

What's the difference between legalization and decriminalization?

if it's legalized, it is not seen as an illicit substance and is completely (well, legal).

to decriminalize weed would entail an end to prosecution of weed-related charges. The netherlands has done this. It's not technically legal, but you aren't penalized for having it.

 

[kserg]

Drug offenders are low risk? Don't they kill people and steal to support their habit. Sounds like good people to lock up to me. I'm all for saving tax dollars, but stepping up executions would help a lot more.

Execution for use of drugs? Cool!!!


I think our next step should be execute people for having cancer and aids to save medicare dollars.

 

[username n/a]

if it's legalized, it is not seen as an illicit substance and is completely (well, legal).

to decriminalize weed would entail an end to prosecution of weed-related charges. The netherlands has done this. It's not technically legal, but you aren't penalized for having it.

So if weed was decriminalized and I got caught with a dime I wouldn't be charged with possession?

 

[kserg]

I don't see how sending druggies into rehab instead of prison is a "bad" thing.

We still should bust people who do drugs (some not all) and send them to rehab. Those of you here who think we should just legalize all drugs don't know what they are talking about. Witness a friend destroy their live over an addiction(s) and then comeback and tell me that drugs are not bad.

Hell, I got a message on my phone the other day and I still can't bring myself up to call her. It sucks, that's all.


For those who think people go to jail for weed, um, if we are talking about cal? They do not. You have to have more then 1 oz to go to jail for weed, under is a ticket. People in jail are either dealers or harder drugs.

 

[Jim Campbell]

So if weed was decriminalized and I got caught with a dime I wouldn't be charged with possession?

decriminalization would place minor pot charges on par with traffic offenses,illegal but subject to fines ,not prison

 

[kserg]

decriminalization would place minor pot charges on par with traffic offenses,illegal but subject to fines ,not prison

That's how it is in California. Anything under an Oz is basically a ticket. Most of time cop made me stump it out and let me go.

 

[Jim Campbell]

That's how it is in California. Anything under an Oz is basically a ticket. Most of time cop made me stump it out and let me go.

some states still use undercover cops to sell you pot then haul you off to jail......to me it seems like even the rabid anti drug folks are beginning to understand that they would be better served if the cops focused on getting street crime under control.......

 

[tasty sweeps]

i think every single for-profit prison should be destroyed brick by brick. and every 'normal' prison's structure should be changed dramatically. there should be more emphasis on rehabilitation and service and connectivity. but of course, that's not what our prison system is for. it only takes one night in a cell to realize that.

the US jails more of its citizens than anywhere else on earth. spend two seconds looking that up and find any number of graphs showing what the civil wa- excuse me, the 'war on drugs' has done.* and a staggering amount of those prisoners are non-violent, small cannabis convictions. or worse, the people are told 'you can either go to jail, or take drug treatment courses, take the courses. don't throw your life away.' and so they are forced to proliferate the lie that cannabis is a drug from which people need recovering, and since legislators typically only care about internal documents, the oppressive laws remain.

the question isn't if "drug dealers" are dangerous people. it's does the drug war make drugs more profitable? and the answer is obviously a resounding YES. drugs are dangerous because making them illegal unrealistically inflates their value. that is vitally important to understand.

i'm actually in the process of creating a dynamic graph showing the numbers of people jailed for certain offenses over time. check out 'gapminder' and the talk on ted.com relating to it [Invalid Link Removed].

i would only support the regulation and taxation of cannabis if every single cent generated from the tax went to health care or something worth while like that. and even then, the regulation would have to be overseen by people who understand the plant. not politicians. not the public relations industry.

*i would like to point out that, in accordance with the war on drugs and the policies that fall under it, it's mostly marginalized, poor, or middle-class people being pursued. that includes the coca farmers of bolivia, but not the installed "cocaine democracies" or major manufacturers of hard drugs.

 

[tasty sweeps]

I've thought for a long time that the best way to improve the penal system would be to do away with the criminal/societal culture on the "inside" by making all jail sentences solitary confinement. Most people are afraid of being alone, and extended periods of solitary time with no social interaction might make people think twice about doing something that would put them back on the inside. Let them read, give them food and water, but don't let them do the kind of "criminal bonding" that always goes on in prisons.

While I agree that it's a logistical nightmare, the sentences could be a lot shorter and (I believe) a lot more effective than what we currently have. And I bet a system like this would do a lot more towards 'rehabilitation" than hanging out with a bunch of hardened bullies on the state's dime. Maybe I'm crazy and/or cruel, but...

i would call making all prison sentences solitary confinement absolutely cruel. humans are social creatures. putting someone alone in an 8x8' cell 23-24 hours a day is cruel, and it is certainly not the best route for rehabilitation. of course, neither is what we have now. so i agree that sticking kids caught with a thai stick in with multiple murderers is wrong, the kind of horror your idea would bring is unimaginable to someone with a little sense of what it's like.

but we can work on this, and devise a better theory. right now, one of the most effective treatments i've seen [even for hardened criminals] is dog training. it's therapeutic, it teaches discipline, cooperation, understanding, caring, bonding, decency and civility. plus it takes care of the problem with too many untrained dogs going to untrained people. you can't always fix the people, but there's an able work force ready to make the dogs better.

 

[Jim Campbell]

i think every single for-profit prison should be destroyed brick by brick. and every 'normal' prison's structure should be changed dramatically. there should be more emphasis on rehabilitation and service and connectivity. but of course, that's not what our prison system is for. it only takes one night in a cell to realize that.

the US jails more of its citizens than anywhere else on earth. spend two seconds looking that up and find any number of graphs showing what the civil wa- excuse me, the 'war on drugs' has done.* and a staggering amount of those prisoners are non-violent, small cannabis convictions. or worse, the people are told 'you can either go to jail, or take drug treatment courses, take the courses. don't throw your life away.' and so they are forced to proliferate the lie that cannabis is a drug from which people need recovering, and since legislators typically only care about internal documents, the oppressive laws remain.

the question isn't if "drug dealers" are dangerous people. it's does the drug war make drugs more profitable? and the answer is obviously a resounding YES. drugs are dangerous because making them illegal unrealistically inflates their value. that is vitally important to understand.

i'm actually in the process of creating a dynamic graph showing the numbers of people jailed for certain offenses over time. check out 'gapminder' and the talk on ted.com relating to it [hans rosling: no more boring data].

i would only support the regulation and taxation of cannabis if every single cent generated from the tax went to health care or something worth while like that. and even then, the regulation would have to be overseen by people who understand the plant. not politicians. not the public relations industry.

*i would like to point out that, in accordance with the war on drugs and the policies that fall under it, it's mostly marginalized, poor, or middle-class people being pursued. that includes the coca farmers of bolivia, but not the installed "cocaine democracies" or major manufacturers of hard drugs.

rehabilitation is a noble goal ,however not always a practical one.....inmates,especially younger ones are not necessarily ready,or even interested in the workaday world and more than a few never are.it's a far more attractive lifestyle to steal,deal,or rob to finance the party for many.......given the nature of the economy we live in do we want to spend resources on dubious rehab programs or simply keep them off the street.....

the media is full of stories of hardened criminals who have conned a panel of well meaning but street clueless social worker types into parole only to re-offend ,often within days of release...and with sometimes devastating consequences.....

the street drug culture has spawned a lot of incredibly violent people and it is hard to imagine a lot of them starting over in rehab working as bus boys,going to night school,etc when they have been used to making thousands in a single day....

it seems that we have a choice,incarcerate/warehouse or incarcerate/rehab ......if we had the means,then rehab,but we dont......so do we educate our kids/provide services for honest hard working folks or spend on social programs for inmates.......keeping violent offenders off the street should be job 1,and rehab/parole for these guys a distant .........i cant bring myself to say second or even third

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

i would call making all prison sentences solitary confinement absolutely cruel. humans are social creatures. putting someone alone in an 8x8' cell 23-24 hours a day is cruel, and it is certainly not the best route for rehabilitation. of course, neither is what we have now. so i agree that sticking kids caught with a thai stick in with multiple murderers is wrong, the kind of horror your idea would bring is unimaginable to someone with a little sense of what it's like.

I think I have some idea how traumatic solitary time can be. The idea is that the time served would be a tiny fracton of what a normal sentence would be, and that there would be no (or much less) "criminal culture" going on inside to make the inmates coming out worse criminals than when they went in. What most modern people can't stomach the idea of, IMO, is having to come to terms with who they are and how they're really living. If a person is ever going to be "rehabilitated", I would think that coming to terms with yourself would be a prerequisite. I'm suggesting that prisoners be fed, clothed, sheltered, and allowed to read; but that their punishment for "crimes against society" be to be completely removed from it for a while so that they may contemplate what they have done and what they would like to do do differently when they get back out. I don't know if the theory is viable, but it makes sense to me....at least, a lot more sense than expecting people who are housed alongside the most depraved society imaginable to somehow become "rehabilitated" in the process. As always, YMMV.

 

[Phil Smith]

I think I have some idea how traumatic solitary time can be. The idea is that the time served would be a tiny fracton of what a normal sentence would be, and that there would be no (or much less) "criminal culture" going on inside to make the inmates coming out worse criminals than when they went in. What most modern people can't stomach the idea of, IMO, is having to come to terms with who they are and how they're really living. If a person is ever going to be "rehabilitated", I would think that coming to terms with yourself would be a prerequisite. I'm suggesting that prisoners be fed, clothed, sheltered, and allowed to read; but that their punishment for "crimes against society" be to be completely removed from it for a while so that they may contemplate what they have done and what they would like to do do differently when they get back out. I don't know if the theory is viable, but it makes sense to me....at least, a lot more sense than expecting people who are housed alongside the most depraved society imaginable to somehow become "rehabilitated" in the process. As always, YMMV.

Is this supposed to be a Zen approach? The prisons do not rehabilitate and don't prepare people for re-entry into society. They have been moving in this direction for a long time i.e. lack of services and programs that enable one to become a productive member of soceity once released from prison. I guess this is to be expected from a society that has moved from a manufacturing based economy to an service based economy with outsourcing of jobs.

Heres's some stats to check out:

Invalid Link Removed

There's got to be something inherently wrong with a system that has a prison population that radically doesn't reflect the percentages of race and ethnicity in the general population.

 

[Jim Campbell]

I think I have some idea how traumatic solitary time can be. The idea is that the time served would be a tiny fracton of what a normal sentence would be, and that there would be no (or much less) "criminal culture" going on inside to make the inmates coming out worse criminals than when they went in. What most modern people can't stomach the idea of, IMO, is having to come to terms with who they are and how they're really living. If a person is ever going to be "rehabilitated", I would think that coming to terms with yourself would be a prerequisite. I'm suggesting that prisoners be fed, clothed, sheltered, and allowed to read; but that their punishment for "crimes against society" be to be completely removed from it for a while so that they may contemplate what they have done and what they would like to do do differently when they get back out. I don't know if the theory is viable, but it makes sense to me....at least, a lot more sense than expecting people who are housed alongside the most depraved society imaginable to somehow become "rehabilitated" in the process. As always, YMMV.

id be more inclined to think that the time spent "contemplating"would be about that first high,drink,sex,and how to avoid capture next time............isolation alone just wont cut it.........keeping them separate from society at large may not be the cure all,but at least the damage done to regular folks would be limited.........priority should be on protecting the public,and if the offender gets the short end,well too bad

 

[guy n. cognito]

Is this supposed to be a Zen approach? The prisons do not rehabilitate and don't prepare people for re-entry into society. They have been moving in this direction for a long time i.e. lack of services and programs that enable one to become a productive member of soceity once released from prison. I guess this is to be expected from a society that has moved from a manufacturing based economy to an service based economy with outsourcing of jobs.

Heres's some stats to check out:

Invalid Link Removed

There's got to be something inherently wrong with a system that has a prison population that radically doesn't reflect the percentages of race and ethnicity in the general population.

The prison population represents the population that is committing crimes. Nothing wrong with that.....

Putting that number of scumbags on the streets is a scary proposition. The concept that they would only be releasing peace-loving potheads does, however, make me giggle.

 

[tasty sweeps]

rehabilitation is a noble goal ,however not always a practical one.....inmates,especially younger ones are not necessarily ready,or even interested in the workaday world and more than a few never are.it's a far more attractive lifestyle to steal,deal,or rob to finance the party for many.......given the nature of the economy we live in do we want to spend resources on dubious rehab programs or simply keep them off the street.....

the media is full of stories of hardened criminals who have conned a panel of well meaning but street clueless social worker types into parole only to re-offend ,often within days of release...and with sometimes devastating consequences.....

the street drug culture has spawned a lot of incredibly violent people and it is hard to imagine a lot of them starting over in rehab working as bus boys,going to night school,etc when they have been used to making thousands in a single day....

it seems that we have a choice,incarcerate/warehouse or incarcerate/rehab ......if we had the means,then rehab,but we dont......so do we educate our kids/provide services for honest hard working folks or spend on social programs for inmates.......keeping violent offenders off the street should be job 1,and rehab/parole for these guys a distant .........i cant bring myself to say second or even third

the fact that it is far easier to sell illegal substances or steal or sell one's body, and the attraction of the young [and others] to that 'life style' is just evidence of the failing of our current social structure and the perversity of our culture- indeed in many ways, it's world wide. there are myriad of outside factors in this, and they all lead to a fairly central problem... that i am prohibited from discussing lest i get another infraction haha.

first of all, i have to laugh when i hear 'the media is full of stories about :blank:'. of course they are. they're the media! just look at their institutional structure and their overall purpose.

again, these paroled offenders are not placed into a rehabilitation system that is meant to function. it's a lot of people with offices. and what kind of future is an ex-con being released to? dead end wage slavery. which is not all that different from anyone else, but then there's the obvious stigma.

the street drug culture. what is a street drug? meth, crack, coke to a slightly lesser extent, H, lots of pill junkies now, booze. weed is sold by people that sell that stuff because it's easy money. depending on the market cannabis can be worth more than gold, ounce for ounce. why is it easy money? because it's illegal. why would a crack head buy weed in the first place? to mellow him out when he's schiz'ing, probably.

what commonalities to street drugs tend to have? they kill. they're addictive. they're made from key substances typically obtained via pharmaceutical companies or at least that a pharma company owns the patent for, etc.

finding it hard to believe that a person can be rehabilitated is understandable. we don't put people into rehabilitation systems that work and even if we did, we don't have a society in which a truly rehabilitated person could function all that well. but that all again goes to the things i mentioned above.

and i agree in theory and in immediate action that creating a society [education is an important factor in this] in which people have less incentive to commit violent crimes and prey on others, rape, steal, in any way infringe upon another person's freedom and personal sovereignty should be paramount. but you have to look far beyond throwing money in a bin marked 'education'. this current society is not it. so it must be rearranged. and that's something that comes down to a responsibility every single individual has. it seems too many aren't even aware of it. but chattle slavery was abolished, conditions and civility have certainly increased. it's not all doom and gloom.

we don't have the means to properly rehabilitate people. well, i can think of many ways to free up a LOT of money. money that would feed and clothe every single person on earth easily. many times over. one way seems to pop right up above the others. it's very elementary. i'd bet it's in anyone's head that can read this... if i were a bettin' man.

did i mention that i'm not concise? i'll stop here. hopefully what i wrote will be taken as i meant it.

 

[tasty sweeps]

The prison population represents the population that is committing crimes. Nothing wrong with that.....

Putting that number of scumbags on the streets is a scary proposition. The concept that they would only be releasing peace-loving potheads does, however, make me giggle.

the number of laws in a place is directly related to the oppression of it's population. look at all the laws. all the stupid, old, retro laws. illegal to pee while looking up on sunday. illegal to have a milk-labeled jug full of water on a city street.

those are laws. if someone breaks them, they must be a criminal, and following your line of logic, they are scumbags that should be removed from the population.

and that concept is one i've not yet heard. and it is quite funny. and quite unrealistic. quite. haha

yes, i am high.

 

[Stumbo]

Good news. Put all the non-violent offenders on parole or just release them. Determinate sentencing is only good for the prison building business and the guard unions.

Prisons over crowded by 30-40-50 percent is cruel and inhumane punishment.

 

[Jim Campbell]

the fact that it is far easier to sell illegal substances or steal or sell one's body, and the attraction of the young [and others] to that 'life style' is just evidence of the failing of our current social structure and the perversity of our culture- indeed in many ways, it's world wide. there are myriad of outside factors in this, and they all lead to a fairly central problem... that i am prohibited from discussing lest i get another infraction haha.

first of all, i have to laugh when i hear 'the media is full of stories about :blank:'. of course they are. they're the media! just look at their institutional structure and their overall purpose.

again, these paroled offenders are not placed into a rehabilitation system that is meant to function. it's a lot of people with offices. and what kind of future is an ex-con being released to? dead end wage slavery. which is not all that different from anyone else, but then there's the obvious stigma.

the street drug culture. what is a street drug? meth, crack, coke to a slightly lesser extent, H, lots of pill junkies now, booze. weed is sold by people that sell that stuff because it's easy money. depending on the market cannabis can be worth more than gold, ounce for ounce. why is it easy money? because it's illegal. why would a crack head buy weed in the first place? to mellow him out when he's schiz'ing, probably.

what commonalities to street drugs tend to have? they kill. they're addictive. they're made from key substances typically obtained via pharmaceutical companies or at least that a pharma company owns the patent for, etc.

finding it hard to believe that a person can be rehabilitated is understandable. we don't put people into rehabilitation systems that work and even if we did, we don't have a society in which a truly rehabilitated person could function all that well. but that all again goes to the things i mentioned above.

and i agree in theory and in immediate action that creating a society [education is an important factor in this] in which people have less incentive to commit violent crimes and prey on others, rape, steal, in any way infringe upon another person's freedom and personal sovereignty should be paramount. but you have to look far beyond throwing money in a bin marked 'education'. this current society is not it. so it must be rearranged. and that's something that comes down to a responsibility every single individual has. it seems too many aren't even aware of it. but chattle slavery was abolished, conditions and civility have certainly increased. it's not all doom and gloom.

we don't have the means to properly rehabilitate people. well, i can think of many ways to free up a LOT of money. money that would feed and clothe every single person on earth easily. many times over. one way seems to pop right up above the others. it's very elementary. i'd bet it's in anyone's head that can read this... if i were a bettin' man.

did i mention that i'm not concise? i'll stop here. hopefully what i wrote will be taken as i meant it.

you make some valid arguments but miss my point.............ie;until society has the resources to properly rehab criminals,which it currently does not,we have a choice.....keep running the bad guys thru a flawed system which causes far too much suffering for ordinary folks,or keep em locked up,which may seem unfair at times,but who's well being takes precedence........

 

[Fassa Albrecht]

Unfortunately the same thing was promised in the UK by HMCS (Her Majesty's Court Service) and this never came to fruition. It's one thing to say 'we'll cut the prison population' but how are they going to do it?

 

[tasty sweeps]

you make some valid arguments but miss my point.............ie;until society has the resources to properly rehab criminals,which it currently does not,we have a choice.....keep running the bad guys thru a flawed system which causes far too much suffering for ordinary folks,or keep em locked up,which may seem unfair at times,but who's well being takes precedence........

why should one life be considered before another?
we're talking about human beings here, just so no one forgets.

i understand your point, but perhaps you missed [one of... haha] mine; we do have the resources to do this. but they're currently... shall we say, not put to the best uses. so that is yet another obstacle. there are many. but without a sort of large-scale vision of what you're working for, it seems like there are only X amount of options.

like i said, many many many outside influences on these kinds of things. it's difficult to discuss any kind of social reform.

--
ps. i'm really pleased with the interaction i'm getting in this thread. thank you and chris and everyone else. i appreciate it. i know this is just the OT forum at talkbass, but i like to get folks thinking about some of the bigger issues that affect all of us.