Change a pickup's resonant frequency and tone with a loading capacitor

[mrperkolator]

Thats weird.
The caps are in the clamp shorting PU Hot and PU Ground for each pickup.

Could it be, because it is all wired in Parallel ?
The 2 coils are in parallel and the pickups also.
Or because of the volume pot ?
That is probably 1MegΩ or even more.

There is 2 Hot wires coming from each pickup, one white one grey one from each coil.
For each PUP, these wires are both in the Hot terminal.
Ground in Ground.
I dont see why else it doesent work.

Its this Preamp
On the second page of that PDF,
one page after the title page,

FLEXCORE
INSTRUCTIONAL OVERVIEW
with the Picture below, there is an explanation, which explains the clamp terminals.

Unfortunately there is no technical info at all on the Nordstrands.
I only know that they have 2 coils around 2 poles and around 3 poles.

I will end up throwing everything out, get some single coils with a known low peak like Barts and make a 12 position tone switch like in that video
Was it 12 ??? every second position.

That switch is very cool and all whats needed.

Thanks, I appreciate the a lot =)

Trickfish (flexcore) makes good stuff. From what I’ve heard that preamp is very sensitive, so perhaps you aren’t used to dialing it in. You have excellent parts. I think you’re just missing something. Try emailing nordstrand or Trickfish about your problem. Both companies have a reputation for helping customers.

 

[Lemon]

I know, the parts are good, its the best pre I ever tried, its since more than 5 years in there, and I use it all the time, its my job =)
Nordstrand didnt react to my mail since a week =)

The metallic sound could come from the Neck adjustment.
Its probably a little too straight, so it becomes metallic, hearing the truss rod, carbon rods and strings more. I try and see what happens with a bit more neck relive, then compensating string height with the saddles a bit.

Still these NJ5FS pups are bright, at least in my bass, or in other words, the low mid Fat is missing.
I like it less bright. I have to cut highs, high mids a lot, low mids a little, and on top of that,
the passive tone. it would be better not to cut that much.
The bass switch on the high setting makes it fatter in the low mids but also very quickly boomy.
These NJ5FS pups are very bright, at least in my bass.
Or in other words, the low mid Fat is missing a lot.

The warm and wooly Big J blades, in this Video came out less than a year after I got the NJ5FS.
The Video it is a bit boomy, but thats just the way it sounds with that way of recording.
The timbre is right though.
The balance between Highs and Mids on my bass, treble is about twice as much on top if not more, then the difference between the White and Sunburst Tokay in the Video.

When I heard it, I thought, damn, that would have been better. I was thinking about it but I didnt do it in the end. Still today if I hear that, thats where I want the ball to hit in the park.

Just like when they hit a Home Run in the Fenway, WHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhh...... !!!!
I was living less than 500 feet a cross from there, I heard it every time they hit one .
At that time we could still see the stadium, from the roof I almost could see the inside.
Now it looks like that there are a lot of big buildings between.

I was hoping to make the very low mids fatter with the caps, at least to find out what to search for and if it is worth a try getting darker fatter pickups.
If the bone dry character stays the same a pickup is not going to change that.
If it just fine, i would just leave the caps in.

One other option is Barts, but I did not like the Barts too much in my last bass.
its as if the have some kind of artificial creamer built in.
Or go completely active with EMGs JAX was a thought also.
Last resort different bass or ear plugs

The weird thing now is, that really nothing happened with those two 3.3 Pico caps.
Or it is so little that I cant tell if it is the caps or my imagination.
I have a very good trained ear for stuf like that so its probably either nothing, or very very little.
But also I dont really have that much experience with PUPS, I just played what was in there, or in that case what I ordered, the original Fender Pre was noisy and the PUPS sucked.

If I did it correct with the cap across hot and ground wires, what the heck ?
So it must be the all Parallel wiring.

I guess most of you guys do that mod with singles, passive, and possibly pups in series wiring ?
Anyhow I just give a try with a larger cap =)
If still nothing happens, it might not work with that pre amp.

Going to shut up now, and try 10000 PICO.
After that im out of ideas =)

 

[mrperkolator]

I know, the parts are good, its the best pre I ever tried, its since more than 5 years in there, and I use it all the time, its my job =)
Nordstrand didnt react to my mail since a week =)

The metallic sound could come from the Neck adjustment.
Its probably a little too straight, so it becomes metallic, hearing the truss rod, carbon rods and strings more. I try and see what happens with a bit more neck relive, then compensating string height with the saddles a bit.

Still these NJ5FS pups are bright, at least in my bass, or in other words, the low mid Fat is missing.
I like it less bright. I have to cut highs, high mids a lot, low mids a little, and on top of that,
the passive tone. it would be better not to cut that much.
The bass switch on the high setting makes it fatter in the low mids but also very quickly boomy.
These NJ5FS pups are very bright, at least in my bass.
Or in other words, the low mid Fat is missing a lot.

The warm and wooly Big J blades, in this Video came out less than a year after I got the NJ5FS.
The Video it is a bit boomy, but thats just the way it sounds with that way of recording.
The timbre is right though.
The balance between Highs and Mids on my bass, treble is about twice as much on top if not more, then the difference between the White and Sunburst Tokay in the Video.

When I heard it, I thought, damn, that would have been better. I was thinking about it but I didnt do it in the end. Still today if I hear that, thats where I want the ball to hit in the park.

Just like when they hit a Home Run in the Fenway, WHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaahhhhh...... !!!!
I was living less than 500 feet a cross from there, I heard it every time they hit one .
At that time we could still see the stadium, from the roof I almost could see the inside.
Now it looks like that there are a lot of big buildings between.

I was hoping to make the very low mids fatter with the caps, at least to find out what to search for and if it is worth a try getting darker fatter pickups.
If the bone dry character stays the same a pickup is not going to change that.
If it just fine, i would just leave the caps in.

One other option is Barts, but I did not like the Barts too much in my last bass.
its as if the have some kind of artificial creamer built in.
Or go completely active with EMGs JAX was a thought also.
Last resort different bass or ear plugs

The weird thing now is, that really nothing happened with those two 3.3 Pico caps.
Or it is so little that I cant tell if it is the caps or my imagination.
I have a very good trained ear for stuf like that so its probably either nothing, or very very little.
But also I dont really have that much experience with PUPS, I just played what was in there, or in that case what I ordered, the original Fender Pre was noisy and the PUPS sucked.

If I did it correct with the cap across hot and ground wires, what the heck ?
So it must be the all Parallel wiring.

I guess most of you guys do that mod with singles, passive, and possibly pups in series wiring ?
Anyhow I just give a try with a larger cap =)
If still nothing happens, it might not work with that pre amp.

Going to shut up now, and try 10000 PICO.
After that im out of ideas =)

what are you using to select different pickups? There’s a way to wire the pickups to blend in series, which will use the pickups to load each other to give that bump. You would have to put this blend before the preamp so that the pre only gets one input signal. I’ve got notes somewhere on how to do this on a jazz style. Let me know if this is a option, I’ll find my notes.

 

[Lemon]

what are you using to select different pickups? There’s a way to wire the pickups to blend in series, which will use the pickups to load each other to give that bump. You would have to put this blend before the preamp so that the pre only gets one input signal. I’ve got notes somewhere on how to do this on a jazz style. Let me know if this is a option, I’ll find my notes.

It is blend yes.
the battery connections are on the Balancer Board which is the pickup balance,
It is actually very possible that the blend is after the Pre.
First I would have guessed its before.
The only thing I could try is wiring the PUPs in series, hot sure exactly how though.
Something like Neck Hot in, connect Neck ground to Bridge Hot, then Bridge Ground to Bridge ground in and short Bridge Hot and Neck Ground in.
But I really dont know, and thats risky, dont want to burn up the Pre

I would say there is no way to change the order of Pre --> Pot, to Pot --> Pre.
It is not visible how the traces are laid out.

It maybe better to get a passive to experiment such things, otherwise im gonna --->

Cheers

 

[winegamd]

On the NJ5FS pickups, the black and Grey wires are both wired to ground and the white wires are hot. For the Trick fish, the white wire goes in the neck pickup + and bridge pickup + terminals on the balancer board , the black wires go in the neck pickup ground and bridge pickup ground terminals. The grey wires both go in the pickup shield terminal. The loading cap would then go from the white to black wire on each pickup.

 

[mrperkolator]

It is blend yes.
the battery connections are on the Balancer Board which is the pickup balance,
It is actually very possible that the blend is after the Pre.
First I would have guessed its before.
The only thing I could try is wiring the PUPs in series, hot sure exactly how though.
Something like Neck Hot in, connect Neck ground to Bridge Hot, then Bridge Ground to Bridge ground in and short Bridge Hot and Neck Ground in.
But I really dont know, and thats risky, dont want to burn up the Pre

I would say there is no way to change the order of Pre --> Pot, to Pot --> Pre.
It is not visible how the traces are laid out.

It maybe better to get a passive to experiment such things, otherwise im gonna --->

Cheers

@winegamd seems more informed than me.... try what he said. If the pre does the balancing then my idea doesn't work.

 

[Lemon]

On the NJ5FS pickups, the black and Grey wires are both wired to ground and the white wires are hot.

Thanks man fixed it.
Grey in shield, Black ground, White in Hot.
That was completely wrong wired up in the first place.
Although ... it still sounded the same.

So I went ahead, and tried a 0.0022uF.
And Yeah it worked !!!
Its way too muffled now same as tone almost fully engaged.
Now the last Trial I able to do before getting more Caps is adding 1000 Nano to the 3.3 Pico and see if that does anything.

Very cool is, that this really old fashioned electronic shop in my town, has boxes full of caps. Literally thousands of different film Caps from the smallest there is to very large ones.

 

[kgbeast]

...
Although ... it still sounded the same.

So I went ahead, and tried a 0.0022uF.
And Yeah it worked !!!
Its way too muffled now same as tone almost fully engaged...

Yes, swapping polarity of the pickup is not going to change how it sounds or reacts to any electronics coupled to it.
As for the cap. Are you sure it is 0.0022uf and not 0.022uf. What you describe better matches 0.022uf.
Check the markings...
222 = 0.0022uf = 2.2nf (loading cap in EBMM Stingray 3-band EQ)
223 = 0.022uf = 22nf. This one is commonly used in starts as an aftermarket "upgrade" for the passive tone control. Hence it would sound like a tone cap fully engaged.

 

[Lemon]

It is 0.022 thats why.

Now I added the 1000 Pico to to 3300 Pico.

Still a bit too much loading, but is close now.

With a full parametric EQ Plugin, and a coin touching one of the poles, I found the increase in output.

From 20 kHz down, until 8.5 kHz the increase in dB is very little. Slightly more down to 5kHz, from there it starts to raise increasingly steep and at 2.5 kHz it peaks.

The ear piercing highs are gone, but also too much of the brilliance.
So i have to find the balance.

3300Pico must be just the point where it starts to become really hearable.

Between 3300 and 4300 Pico,
Im trying around 3700 next.

What Im wondering though is, if a pickup which has a lower peak by winding, without Cap loading sounds different in therms of Fatness and Briliance,
more direct. Can it be that the Cap loading takes away some of that ?

 

[winegamd]

It would be louder with more winding, and the inductive reactance might change the sound a little, but for the most part it would sound the same if the resonant peaks were the same and everything else were equal.

 

[Lemon]

It would be louder with more winding, and the inductive reactance might change the sound a little, but for the most part it would sound the same if the resonant peaks were the same and everything else were equal.

Ok thanks a lot.

Summary.
3300pico was almost not noticeable.
4300pico was setting it too low.

With 320 pico added, its 3620pico. That tames the highs with shifting it too low.

I will try 220pico more, some times.

What still missing is a bit more Low mids high bass wool and liveliness.

But I guess thats the Humbucker, in combination how that Bass sounds.

Compared to a Fender V Ash, it it is on the dry and precise slightly flat sounding side.

No blooming lows and not responsive like a Fbass in single coil mode.

I think I will try single coils.

The Kent Armstrongs are interesting.

Those are dual coil, with a Blade instead of poles, they can be switches single series and as hum buckers.
I think its possible to request in what direction tone wise it should go.

=)

 

[Lemon]

Hi friends,
sound good so far, but I think i want to go for single coil.

Since I have almost no experience with PUs im hanging shot at couple of questions.

There is two choices which could fit the bill.
One is the Nordstrand Big J Blade WW,
basically a plain single coil with 2 wires.
It Sounds very thick in the lower mids it makes a big body in a video where it is compared to a NJ4 seem to be a classic JB single coil PU.

Its pretty much there where my bass is not exactly thick sounding. I can boost low mids a little and cut almost all high mids to get there, but an EQ is almost always stealing power and introduces phase.
The less it is manipulated the better it sounds.

The other PU is an Armstrong JBSS, also a Blade, With coils on each side with taps.
Neck an Bridge PU are Tap I think.
They also can wind what is requested,
so I would probably ask for a overwind.
The option to run it hum bucking if needed, is also nice, just in case of excessive hum.
And my Preamp has clamps for coil taps.

What I dont get, is the coil tap part

Pure Single coil mode, would be only one coil per pickup is connected to the Pre.

That PU has 2 coils, Series would be,
the the IN of the first coil is connected to the Pre,
the OUT of the first coil is connected to the IN of the second coil and the OUT of the second coil is connected to the Pre.

Parallel would be,
the INs and OUTs of both coils are connected to the Pre, to Hot and Ground.

Hum Bucking is the same with Reversed polarity.

If so which option has the most dymanics and output ?
I can only tell from my AC5 FBass.
That only one PU, its a wider PU, like two Jazz PUs side by side.

I think is actually the same as two Jazz PUs side by side.

If it is in single coil mode, that thing has a biiig fat tone, with heaps of dynamics.

If it is in hum bucker mode its a lot quieter and sounds boring, flat, no dynamics, I never the hum bucker mode.

Will that be similar with those Kent Armstrong side by side coils, or would that still need doubling the PUs side by side ?

Thanks a lot for any insight,
Lemon, the yellow sour thing

 

[sunbeast]

Hi friends,
sound good so far, but I think i want to go for single coil.

Since I have almost no experience with PUs im hanging shot at couple of questions.

There is two choices which could fit the bill.
One is the Nordstrand Big J Blade WW,
basically a plain single coil with 2 wires.
It Sounds very thick in the lower mids it makes a big body in a video where it is compared to a NJ4 seem to be a classic JB single coil PU.

Its pretty much there where my bass is not exactly thick sounding. I can boost low mids a little and cut almost all high mids to get there, but an EQ is almost always stealing power and introduces phase.
The less it is manipulated the better it sounds.

The other PU is an Armstrong JBSS, also a Blade, With coils on each side with taps.
Neck an Bridge PU are Tap I think.
They also can wind what is requested,
so I would probably ask for a overwind.
The option to run it hum bucking if needed, is also nice, just in case of excessive hum.
And my Preamp has clamps for coil taps.

What I dont get, is the coil tap part

Pure Single coil mode, would be only one coil per pickup is connected to the Pre.

That PU has 2 coils, Series would be,
the the IN of the first coil is connected to the Pre,
the OUT of the first coil is connected to the IN of the second coil and the OUT of the second coil is connected to the Pre.

Parallel would be,
the INs and OUTs of both coils are connected to the Pre, to Hot and Ground.

Hum Bucking is the same with Reversed polarity.

If so which option has the most dymanics and output ?
I can only tell from my AC5 FBass.
That only one PU, its a wider PU, like two Jazz PUs side by side.

I think is actually the same as two Jazz PUs side by side.

If it is in single coil mode, that thing has a biiig fat tone, with heaps of dynamics.

If it is in hum bucker mode its a lot quieter and sounds boring, flat, no dynamics, I never the hum bucker mode.

Will that be similar with those Kent Armstrong side by side coils, or would that still need doubling the PUs side by side ?

Thanks a lot for any insight,
Lemon, the yellow sour thing

not really relevant to this thread, but:

I’m not finding an Armstrong “JBSS” pickup anywhere, is that Kent Armstrong? In any case it would be hard to guess how they might compare to your F-bass pickups without some design specs from each. If the Armstrong pickups are able to be useful in single coil mode then they must either be side-by-side coils like your F-bass or stacked coils.

Your description of series wiring is missing a ground connection somewhere (presumably the “out of coil 2 to ground rather than pre).

Usually series coils have the highest output, but often the least dynamics (more compression), single coil is in the middle output-wise and probably the most dynamic, parallel is the lowest output and probably in the middle dynamics-wise. None of that is set in stone though (compression may not be much of an issue with any of the arrangements depending on the design and setup). Also series coils will tend to be darker (usually more midrange-forward), and parallel coils will tend to have the flattest frequency response (it sounds like your F-bass might have the coils in parallel when in humbucker mode based on the decreased output description).

 

[Lemon]

not really relevant to this thread, but:

True, I´ll shut up after this.

Is there any threads, where I can find out about technical information and the effects of different designs types ?

I find mostly endless single coil threads, on which brand is how, but not really much technical about Pickups.

E.g, blades, double poles, single poles, fat poles, slim poles, thick wire, thin wire, windings, ect.

Or if the coil height is a factor in a design.

A higher bobbine = longer pole pieces = a wider winding area = larger magnetic field.
Picking up more detail all the way out to the outest edge where the the string still has impact on the magnetic field, results in more detail ?

I dont know really, Im just very interested.

I’m not finding an Armstrong “JBSS” pickup anywhere, is that Kent Armstrong? In any case it would be hard to guess how they might compare to your F-bass pickups without some design specs from each. If the Armstrong pickups are able to be useful in single coil mode then they must either be side-by-side coils like your F-bass or stacked coils.

Oups..
Sorry about that glitch, forgot to paste the --> link.

They wrote back:
"The JB SS has two coils on their sides so each induce evenly,
unlike a stacked system where the bottom coil doesn’t induce as much as the top one"

Your description of series wiring is missing a ground connection somewhere (presumably the “out of coil 2 to ground rather than pre).

I meant the out to the pre in which has a ground clamp for each PU.

Usually series coils have the highest output, but often the least dynamics (more compression), single coil is in the middle output-wise and probably the most dynamic, parallel is the lowest output and probably in the middle dynamics-wise. None of that is set in stone though (compression may not be much of an issue with any of the arrangements depending on the design and setup). Also series coils will tend to be darker (usually more midrange-forward), and parallel coils will tend to have the flattest frequency response

ok, thanks a lot,
Single highest dynamic
Parallel middle dynamic
Series lowest dynamic
But it is not poured in concrete, depending on the design and setup.

Now I know single is probably what Im looking for.
Humbuckers seem to be sort of dampened and subdued in the spectrum where the voice of the bass is.

(it sounds like your F-bass might have the coils in parallel when in humbucker mode based on the decreased output description).

The AC5 in passive mode, tone pot set to max. bright, switching between single and humbucker mode, there a 6dB difference on the UA console dB meter. I did pull quite hard on the strings, I never play with that kind of force, it is just easier to get a clear difference in output on the meter.

The Kent Armstrong is a Blade with a coil left and right of the blade.
They say, they can wind it with thinner 42gauge wire to hit what im looking for, thats nice.

It must be that Nordstrand J Blades, has one coil which most likely goes around that blade.

The radiused blades of the Nordstands, will help the even sensing.

Im adjusting the strings along the radius of the board so that makes sense. the Kent Armstrong is flat.

on the otherhand The Kent Armstong can be switched to Humbucker if nessesarry.

thanks =)
Lemon

 

[Passinwind]

True, I´ll shut up after this.

Is there any threads, where I can find out about technical information and the effects of different designs types ?
Lemon

I think your best bet is probably in the Luthier's Corner forum, starting here: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/ma...building-thread.1374810/page-85#post-27793876

You may need to post some specific questions, but the OP and some of the other contributors have direct hands on experience, at least.

 

[Lemon]

Cool Thanks
=)
Just opened the first page...

WOW very cool !!!

 

[Passinwind]

Cool Thanks
=)
Just opened the first page...

WOW very cool !!!

Very nice guys in that thread too. You might also want to take a look here: Pickup Makers - Music Electronics Forum

 

[el-zilcho]

Shorting coils impart damping at the resonance, and a 3 dB per octave rolloff above that. Speaker crossovers are a different thing.

Would you mind sharing specific details about the shorting coils, like which coils to use, and where to use them, please?
Also, do they increase the inductance of the circuit, or decrease it?
Thank you, I'm very interested!

 

[5StringPocket]

Good info in this thread. I have a bright sounding bass with a peak in the upper mid/treble that’s hard to isolate and tame. Passive tone cuts it a bit but affects treble more where it gets a bit muffled. I’d like less of this offending frequency and more low mid beef and wondered if the right loading cap might do the trick? Is there any measurement software which could capture the pickup characteristic curve to see where the resonant peak is?

 

[micguy]

Would you mind sharing specific details about the shorting coils, like which coils to use, and where to use them, please?
Also, do they increase the inductance of the circuit, or decrease it?
Thank you, I'm very interested!

Shorted turns (probably should have used that term before) are simply pieces of wire that go around the coil on a pickup, and that connect to themselves - I use hookup wire (the same stuff I use to connect other parts of the circuit), cut it to a length that will go around the pickup coil, and strip the ends so I can solder it to itself after going around the coil.

Their effect is relatively subtle - they do not change the inductance of a pickup. They don't change the resistance. What they do change is a parasitic component - if you measure the impedance of a guitar (or bass) pickup, you need 5 electrical components to make an accurate model for Spice simulations. Those components are:

1) The DC resistance - the one thing you can measure with a simple ohmmeter - it's not too important in the grand scheme of things, but it's what's most often quoted. A higher resistance does damp the resonant peak (along with another component to be named later), but other than that, it's really not very important in the performance of things.

2) The inductance - this is the most important component in general. In the equivalent circuit, the resistance and inductance are in series with each other (though in reality it's a distributed thing). There are a lot of places that will tell you that the inductance of a pickup changes with frequency. That's rubbish. If you have a meter that tries to measure inductance at one frequency, and you change that frequency, or use a meter that operates at a different frequency, those measurements may give you different values for the inductance, but the inductance is not changing - you're just doing a measurement that's not detailed enough to understand what it going on. There are other parasitic components that cause this confusion in a simple meter, and they are:

3) Interwinding capacitance. The way you wind a coil affects this - scattered winding (as an example) means the layers of wire aren't neatly beside each other, so you get less interwinding capacitance in a scatter wound coil. The capacitor that represents this in the equivalent circuit goes from the output of the resistor/indictor branch to ground.

4) Eddy current losses. These are a result of things in the magnetic circuit, and other conductive stuff in the vicinity of the coil - the magnets, the pole pieces, shorted turns, any shielding - all of those things cause eddy current losses, which are another branch of the equivalent circuit - they are represented by a capacitor in series with a resistor, and that combination is in parallel with the aforementioned interwinding capacitance. The value of that resistance (lower resistance gives more damping) is what a shorted turn affects - more losses means that the resonant peak of the pickup will be reduced in amplitude (the peak isn't as high), but the frequency of that peak doesn't change.