How long have you known this member? Have you been to dinner at his house? Did you help him move?
There is no "victim" here. The ebay seller got his money, the buyer was refunded.
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CITES - What every bass player should know
- Thread starter Turnaround
- Start date
There is no "victim" here. The ebay seller got his money, the buyer was refunded.
Very good point, and this is what really irks me about many laws/acts like this. We are leaving something like this in the hands of people who are GROSSLY unqualified to make such judgement calls in many cases. What next? Are we going to put Brazilian Rosewood sniffing dogs at customs? Don't worry though guys, wood doesn't matter anyways
And what about the buyer? Sure he got his money back, but I just purchased a used GK head from a user on here for a great price. If it was "confiscated" by someone at Customs on suspicion of "illegal materials", I would be pretty pissed even if I got my money back. I ran into a partly similar impasse with Guitar Center when my Traynor's tubes got crushed due to awfully stupid packaging by the store. They said "We can refund you your money, cool right?" and I said "I bought the amp for a reason, I wanted one, if I wanted my money I would have just kept it...I want the freakin head to work." I empathize with the buyer simply because I've been there and it's a pretty crappy feeling :/
It may just be a bunch of wood and metal, but the bass certainly was a victim in this, certainly so if it ended up in the wood chipper.
Well...
The end. No victim. Just another miniscule disappointment most internet buyers experience every once in a while.
Albeit arguably preventable
That logic can be applied to justify anything, but at the end of the day somebody was cheated out of a deal because of an overzealous ruling, which was administered by inefficient bureaucracies staffed by warm bodies. It's a very different experience when the shoe is on your foot and you lost out on a piece of gear you REALLY wanted.
No one was cheated. Nobody knows whether it was a "deal" or not. Some guy in another country has to buy another EBMM bass. No problem, there are zillions of them out there.
Then if "zillions" of them are out there, it makes me wonder why this was confiscated in the first place, since it would be easy to reference the materials used. With your self-admitted lack of details, we can't rule out that this wasn't a deal either, something must have stoked the guy to buy this particular one. If this department was so idiotic that they wasted an EBMM bass that is fairly common, what happens when a Wal or Fodera comes through? Perhaps an heirloom instrument being shipped to a family member overseas? There's more to many instruments than just hard dollar value. Maybe I'm coming off as bleeding-heart or over-empathetic, but lets think outside the box some and see what this adds up to.
I just hope this never happens to you
the thread is about CITES. I merely gave an example. When I just opened the forum just a few minutes ago, his evilbay thread is number 1. The two examples I mentioned fit the subject matter at hand.
smcd said:
How long have you known this member? Have you been to dinner at his house? Did you help him move?
There is no "victim" here. The ebay seller got his money, the buyer was refunded.
smcd said:
How long have you known this member? Have you been to dinner at his house? Did you help him move?
There is no "victim" here. The ebay seller got his money, the buyer was refunded.
Great thread! Thanks y'all. I hope wisdom prevails. At this stage, complex natural ecosystems, forests, are the only things that can produce high-end tone-wood. Farmed wood grows way too fast and falls way short. We are at a pretty desperate juncture here. Up until now, rules made for the Western world only created a lucrative market elsewhere where bribery and corruption are just cogs in the immorally legitimized trading process.
Officials, in lets say Vietnam, where there's still a bunch of beautiful old-growth rosewood etc. streaming out into international markets, often in the form of instruments these days (value-adding), all turn a blind eye. It's business as usual. The way it's always been. The market just gets shunted somewhere else, under the pressure of regulation. This is what we're up against, hence these crazy new efforts. Only one alternative now. It just has to stop.
There's been an amazing rush on all the good wood in recent years. Some buyers have been paying huge premiums - still at a profit - in the regulated market. Some haven't managed. But now, for those who forked out the dough? They're sitting on a gold mine. The new regulations and laws won't effect them too much and the whole thing will settle, in time. Illegal operations however will be hammered, and for the sake of perpetuating great music. On those grounds, I'm happy.
Recycled timber should help the laws stand by diminishing the market for fresh-cut wood. This technically includes all old instruments, my guess, because what are they if they're not recycled? That should figure in the laws regarding touring musos, international sales etc. Play 'em once, they're recycled from that moment on. Paperwork, provenience, is obviously now a prerequisite for some of the younger vintages. Some older axes speak for themselves.
Then there's old furniture and infrastructure. Old stairwells make decent bull fiddles. Lots of potential there. But, if we're not really careful, soon this will be the only way to get old growth woods. That's what this is all about. NO new wood signals the beginning of THE END.
I bought an old guitar with a Brazilian rosewood bridge and fretboard a little while ago. Didn't cost me much. But try buying a new one today, legitimately.
Officials, in lets say Vietnam, where there's still a bunch of beautiful old-growth rosewood etc. streaming out into international markets, often in the form of instruments these days (value-adding), all turn a blind eye. It's business as usual. The way it's always been. The market just gets shunted somewhere else, under the pressure of regulation. This is what we're up against, hence these crazy new efforts. Only one alternative now. It just has to stop.
There's been an amazing rush on all the good wood in recent years. Some buyers have been paying huge premiums - still at a profit - in the regulated market. Some haven't managed. But now, for those who forked out the dough? They're sitting on a gold mine. The new regulations and laws won't effect them too much and the whole thing will settle, in time. Illegal operations however will be hammered, and for the sake of perpetuating great music. On those grounds, I'm happy.
Recycled timber should help the laws stand by diminishing the market for fresh-cut wood. This technically includes all old instruments, my guess, because what are they if they're not recycled? That should figure in the laws regarding touring musos, international sales etc. Play 'em once, they're recycled from that moment on. Paperwork, provenience, is obviously now a prerequisite for some of the younger vintages. Some older axes speak for themselves.
Then there's old furniture and infrastructure. Old stairwells make decent bull fiddles. Lots of potential there. But, if we're not really careful, soon this will be the only way to get old growth woods. That's what this is all about. NO new wood signals the beginning of THE END.
I bought an old guitar with a Brazilian rosewood bridge and fretboard a little while ago. Didn't cost me much. But try buying a new one today, legitimately.
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Then if "zillions" of them are out there, it makes me wonder why this was confiscated in the first place, since it would be easy to reference the materials used. With your self-admitted lack of details, we can't rule out that this wasn't a deal either, something must have stoked the guy to buy this particular one. If this department was so idiotic that they wasted an EBMM bass that is fairly common, what happens when a Wal or Fodera comes through? Perhaps an heirloom instrument being shipped to a family member overseas? There's more to many instruments than just hard dollar value. Maybe I'm coming off as bleeding-heart or over-empathetic, but lets think outside the box some and see what this adds up to.
I just hope this never happens to you
I have the same details about this situation as you do. Which are that the seller was paid and the buyer was reimbursed. Yet you seem convinced that there are idiots involved somewhere, and that a bass was "wasted". (?) Don't think outside the box when the box is where the facts are stored.
As usual there's a lot of stupid self-centered, ill informed, victim syndrome (this country is in deep crap)
a little bit of knowledge is dangerous
there are very good reasons for these treaties, if you want your children to be able to own a tonewood bassed instrument in the future
the reason we are inconvenienced is because ruthless criminals around the world are raping the forests every chance they get
for those who REALLY want to be educated about the subject there are threads regarding ebony including a serious video documenting the problems - it will piss you off if you have a conscience
a little bit of knowledge is dangerous
there are very good reasons for these treaties, if you want your children to be able to own a tonewood bassed instrument in the future
the reason we are inconvenienced is because ruthless criminals around the world are raping the forests every chance they get
for those who REALLY want to be educated about the subject there are threads regarding ebony including a serious video documenting the problems - it will piss you off if you have a conscience
Times like this make me glad I'm not into expensive woods 
It's likely that to go much further on this topic will ebb too close to politics, yet it's the elephant in the room given the thread subject.
Not sure you get what that mea----you know what, nevermind lol
It's likely that to go much further on this topic will ebb too close to politics, yet it's the elephant in the room given the thread subject.
Not sure you get what that mea----you know what, nevermind lol
- Apr 6, 2013
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- Disclosures
- Agent for Scandinavian countries: Stick Enterprises Inc.
All good news for Status Graphite, Zon and other composite materials producers then 
In all seriousness, when I travel to the US, I'll make sure to bring my graphite Chapman Stick rather than my shedua one (yup, it's brown wood...)!
In all seriousness, when I travel to the US, I'll make sure to bring my graphite Chapman Stick rather than my shedua one (yup, it's brown wood...)!
Here Bob Taylor talks about the depletion of instrument grade woods and his response to irresponsible harvesting.
I think it is great what Bob is doing; I have seen this and I read all the updates in W&S. But, no matter; if some lackey at some shipping or auction company decides a dark wood (or any other color for that matter) looks "suspicious" that instrument won't be making it to it's final destination. Hey, we already have evidence of bogus decision making. 
I agree there are some rather serious concerns looming if you are traveling across borders with basses.
Instead of complaining about it, maybe someone could get the ball rolling to petition for an internationally recognized "passport" for players' instruments. Bet you could get a lot of signatories here on TB.
Makes sense, and I would do it if I were traveling across borders enough to make the effort worthwhile; which is not the case.
Anyhow here's my vote to try to minimize the biotch posting and get constructive.
Instead of complaining about it, maybe someone could get the ball rolling to petition for an internationally recognized "passport" for players' instruments. Bet you could get a lot of signatories here on TB.
Makes sense, and I would do it if I were traveling across borders enough to make the effort worthwhile; which is not the case.
Anyhow here's my vote to try to minimize the biotch posting and get constructive.
Very good solution, getting the instrument pre-checked and certified by professionals would definitely make it easier on everyone. Quicker trip through customs and less likelihood of unlawfully seized instruments.
I'll do my best not to re-state what's already been expressed. But IMHO, our government can grandfather anything if it wants to with relative effectiveness. Part of the issue is that other governments -- often where the criminals operate -- can't. CITES is the start of what could be good international policy, but to enforce it all governments involved must enforce it with somewhat the same verve -- and what is called "verve" in, say, Russia is considered by many to be "punitive" and "unconstitutional" here.
I work as an editor in the fashion and apparel industry, and there is a similar issue with identifying and sourcing furs. Right now, the burden is primarily on the retailer to identify, for consumers and for the FTC, what species a fur is, whether or not it is genuine, how it is colored, and what country it came from. The retailer is nearly totally dependent on the manufacturer for this info, and the manufacturer is nearly totally dependent on the fur supplier for that info ... etc. There is a tremendous amount of room for graft in the identification process -- yet the burden is on the retailer, even though the manufacturer is tasked with supplying much of that info on product tags. Basically, everyone along the process has to be honest for the process to work, and let me tell you, there are plenty of folks deep in apparel who are not honest about such things. Then there's the language barrier -- I won't even get into that.
My point is an international treaty must be enforced relatively equally by all parties involved, or it won't work.
Also ... to the poster who says that there isn't a victim when a huge auction site we all know confiscates a bass and reimburses the seller: Baloney. If I'd been searching for a specific bass for months (and I have), found it, bought it, and had it taken away from me by a third-party corporate agency acting overdiligently on a government mandate, I'd sure as hell feel like a victim.
(Final note: I collect small wooden boxes; many are made with exotic woods. I have about 80. Some are vintage, some are recently made. I'd say two-thirds of my collection is now illegal unless I can prove provenance -- as well as a solid-teak flip-top desk hand made for my grandfather. Guess I won't be moving internationally any time soon!)
I work as an editor in the fashion and apparel industry, and there is a similar issue with identifying and sourcing furs. Right now, the burden is primarily on the retailer to identify, for consumers and for the FTC, what species a fur is, whether or not it is genuine, how it is colored, and what country it came from. The retailer is nearly totally dependent on the manufacturer for this info, and the manufacturer is nearly totally dependent on the fur supplier for that info ... etc. There is a tremendous amount of room for graft in the identification process -- yet the burden is on the retailer, even though the manufacturer is tasked with supplying much of that info on product tags. Basically, everyone along the process has to be honest for the process to work, and let me tell you, there are plenty of folks deep in apparel who are not honest about such things. Then there's the language barrier -- I won't even get into that.
My point is an international treaty must be enforced relatively equally by all parties involved, or it won't work.
Also ... to the poster who says that there isn't a victim when a huge auction site we all know confiscates a bass and reimburses the seller: Baloney. If I'd been searching for a specific bass for months (and I have), found it, bought it, and had it taken away from me by a third-party corporate agency acting overdiligently on a government mandate, I'd sure as hell feel like a victim.
(Final note: I collect small wooden boxes; many are made with exotic woods. I have about 80. Some are vintage, some are recently made. I'd say two-thirds of my collection is now illegal unless I can prove provenance -- as well as a solid-teak flip-top desk hand made for my grandfather. Guess I won't be moving internationally any time soon!)
All politics aside, thanks for posting this. I have a couple of gigs out of country this summer and because of this thread I'll be packing the receipt I got from Warmoth for the neck visible in my avatar. It's three years old and Indian Rosewood.
I won't be bringing my bass with a Warmoth neck from the 80's with a rosewood fingerboard as I have no way of proving what kind of rosewood it is. Even I forget. For all I know it is Brazilian and I would have brought it had I not read this.
I won't be bringing my bass with a Warmoth neck from the 80's with a rosewood fingerboard as I have no way of proving what kind of rosewood it is. Even I forget. For all I know it is Brazilian and I would have brought it had I not read this.
