Thanks for the info. I will tamp from now on. But another question: Does tamping mean more ground coffee? In other words, do I fill up the void with extra coffee? I usually don't measure; I just fill the basket to the top.
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Double Bass Coffee
- Thread starter Marc Piane
- Start date
Thanks for the info. I will tamp from now on. But another question: Does tamping mean more ground coffee? In other words, do I fill up the void with extra coffee? I usually don't measure; I just fill the basket to the top.
You should always measure. I use a scoop, I think it measures flat 7g of espresso grind. Burr grinders measure out the dose as well, but I go by eye when I work with one.
Tamp enough to make it pour for about 20 seconds, turning the tamp a half turn before removing it to make a smooth surface.
Tamp enough to make it pour for about 20 seconds, turning the tamp a half turn before removing it to make a smooth surface.
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Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
The baristas at JJ Bean all do it. And one of them won the Silver Medal at the World Championships a couple of years ago.
What does it do? Cleaning the basket with a cloth seems to get all the old grounds out perfectly?
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
The guy in the vid just banged the old grounds out and started again...
They blast all the bits out of the holes with the hot water and it removes the oils - yummy!
I spend some time in Seattle and really look forward to getting back to JJ for a real espresso/Americano. Spent two weeks this June going down to California, across Nevada (Starbucks - icky) to Idaho and then through Oregon and Washington back to BC. No coffee worth talking about except what I was making in the campgrounds.
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Tamping: Too much pressure and the pull becomes strong or simply gets blocked. Too little and the pull is weak and watery. General rule IIRC is 20 lbs of pressure this is a crapshoot in the beginning unless you know how to manually apply such amounts of pressure consistently every time. I went to a few coffeebars I liked and asked the baristas about how to apply pressure and their response was that making sure your tamp was level is far more important. In hindsight this advice is true. Unlevel tamps were far more inconsistent. I've done it enough of times that I just simply throw the weight of my arm into it. IMO, this is where the grinds are important as the grind also needs to match the person tamping. I guess this is where the fineness of the grind becomes personal.
With all the variables in place, I just want a pull that kinda trickles out. IME, these taste the best and usually have the best crema.
Blowing out the basket: Minor thing. Never noticed any diff whether I've cleaned the basket on the portafilter or not. The aluminum basket doesn't really collect oil so if there's anything, it's not much. Being concerned about the basket is probably a moot point: there is far more oil and old coffee grinds stuck on the bottom of the receiver on the machine. Because coffee gets packed into it and you make shot after shot it gets messy after a while and things don't really come off. You're better off focusing on cleaning your machine regularly, running a descaler through it or backflushing.
That's worhthy of pointing out: on any machine, descaling on a regular basis is important as is using clean filtered water (which helps prevent scaling). I'm lazy, I backflush/descale my espresso machine about once every 4-5 months, tho this current one I have (Rancilio Silvia) seems to stay cleaner longer. Thankfully, the water we get here is very good quality.
BTW: I never measure the amount of grinds. I just eyeball it and there's just too many variables in play that a few grams here and there taht would make a difference. The damp is so subjective every time that it can throw off any detailed measuring. When I'm dosing, I just pile it up so it'll fill to the brim of the basket before tamping. That's about the amount of quick consistency I need. Observing the baristas out there, it looks like they do the same.
One thing to point out about espresso: Apparently the flavor starts to degrades after sitting around for 2 minutes. Of course you want to serve it while it's hot as possible. When you are making multiple cups, there's no time to measure the dosage so you generally come with a workflow that is fast as possible.
With all the variables in place, I just want a pull that kinda trickles out. IME, these taste the best and usually have the best crema.
Blowing out the basket: Minor thing. Never noticed any diff whether I've cleaned the basket on the portafilter or not. The aluminum basket doesn't really collect oil so if there's anything, it's not much. Being concerned about the basket is probably a moot point: there is far more oil and old coffee grinds stuck on the bottom of the receiver on the machine. Because coffee gets packed into it and you make shot after shot it gets messy after a while and things don't really come off. You're better off focusing on cleaning your machine regularly, running a descaler through it or backflushing.
That's worhthy of pointing out: on any machine, descaling on a regular basis is important as is using clean filtered water (which helps prevent scaling). I'm lazy, I backflush/descale my espresso machine about once every 4-5 months, tho this current one I have (Rancilio Silvia) seems to stay cleaner longer. Thankfully, the water we get here is very good quality.
BTW: I never measure the amount of grinds. I just eyeball it and there's just too many variables in play that a few grams here and there taht would make a difference. The damp is so subjective every time that it can throw off any detailed measuring. When I'm dosing, I just pile it up so it'll fill to the brim of the basket before tamping. That's about the amount of quick consistency I need. Observing the baristas out there, it looks like they do the same.
One thing to point out about espresso: Apparently the flavor starts to degrades after sitting around for 2 minutes. Of course you want to serve it while it's hot as possible. When you are making multiple cups, there's no time to measure the dosage so you generally come with a workflow that is fast as possible.
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Tamping is done with a little tool (a tamper) that you see in the vid. Looks like a puck with a screwdriver handle.
See here for gory details. Invalid Link Removed
Pressure during tamping is a sort of crapshoot. You just have to do it alot and dial in your technique. Yes, too hard of a tamp can damage the pump when it can't push any water out the other end. There's not enough pressure for it to explode I don't think.
WRT Machines: there's all sorts of stuff. Dozens of different Espresso machine makes from home use to professional ones that cost more than the best DBs. IMO, most are used by people who don't know what they're doing so you're not usually getting a good cup of joe unless you go to a really good Barista. There machines come from being fully manual where you control water temp and pressure to a fully automatic one where you just push a button. Some of the fully auto ones are supposed to be pretty good because it can measure every single detail, but I havne't seen one do a perfect foam. Still how good the cups come from them depend on who's setting the grind settings and everything else.
Then there's grinders (more $$$). If I'm allowed to use bass playing as a metaphor, in the coffee world I would say that the bass is the grinder, the bow is the espresso machine. You can have a crappy espresso machine and still make really good coffee if you know what you're doing.
You sink all your cash into the grinder and go with a cheapy machine until you can afford better.
See here for gory details. Invalid Link Removed
Pressure during tamping is a sort of crapshoot. You just have to do it alot and dial in your technique. Yes, too hard of a tamp can damage the pump when it can't push any water out the other end. There's not enough pressure for it to explode I don't think.
WRT Machines: there's all sorts of stuff. Dozens of different Espresso machine makes from home use to professional ones that cost more than the best DBs. IMO, most are used by people who don't know what they're doing so you're not usually getting a good cup of joe unless you go to a really good Barista. There machines come from being fully manual where you control water temp and pressure to a fully automatic one where you just push a button. Some of the fully auto ones are supposed to be pretty good because it can measure every single detail, but I havne't seen one do a perfect foam. Still how good the cups come from them depend on who's setting the grind settings and everything else.
Then there's grinders (more $$$). If I'm allowed to use bass playing as a metaphor, in the coffee world I would say that the bass is the grinder, the bow is the espresso machine. You can have a crappy espresso machine and still make really good coffee if you know what you're doing.
You sink all your cash into the grinder and go with a cheapy machine until you can afford better.
This deserves more than a "like." Thanks for the coffee geek.com site. And all the info.
You learn something new every day, but at my age you forget something every thirty minutes
Jut for info, it's not steam but water that goes through the grounds. Too hot and you will get a terrible espresso.
Very true about uneven tamps, water follows the path of least resistance and will flow too quickly through the cake.
BTW never tamp with the Mr Coffee stovetop machines, they are designed to have the basket filled to the top with loose espresso grind.
I saw something cool at a friend's new coffee shop last week, a tamper that was spring loaded, with a kind of base to rest the portafilter on. The idea being if you are rushed or inexperienced you'll get a level tamp with approximately the correct tamp every time. It worked really well by nothing beats experience and a regular metal tamp.
I got my espresso chops at a bar I set up and ran for a while, as part of a large group. I finagled the of a loan spanking new two group fully manual machine from the Illy rep, who at the time was working to get market share for the brand (very long interesting story behind the family that started that and Hausbrandt label in Torino, and of a brother who registered the Illy name in Switzerland so the parent company had to rename it in this market. )
I any case, the machine was brutally unforgiving and if you made a poor tamp you would get a cup of water or a few dribbles of mud. But once you got it right you got a crema and flavours that were incredibly complex and perfectly balanced.
I too have never had a great espresso from a fully automatic machine, semis are better but nothing beats a good manual machine.
A big thing in Italy is to blend beans from different regions, every bar or Caffé has their own 'secret' ratio of two or three different Arabicas, and some use a bit of Robusto as well.
Some commercial grinders have the tamp connected to the hopper, you fill the basket and lift it to tamp. Never use these as it is impossible to get a correct tamp.
Most people outside of Italy get espressos wrong from the start by adjusting the machine to pour too much water through, so following the 20 second guide they get the wrong speed of pour, and a coffee that is simply too large to ever taste proper due to the wrong ratio of crema to liquid. An espresso is two sips, basta, the second one taken as in one motion as you half turn to say goodbye to he barista and leave the establishment. Master this and you will be accepted into Italian culture.
It's been a while since I worked with an espresso machine so I did a search to confirm the amount of coffee supposed to be used per shot, and came across this beautiful site from one of the absolute top machine manufacturers. It has some beautifully shot videos, the one on how to steam milk should be required viewing (even if it is often taught to pull down the jug as the milk starts to froth to keep the wand just under the surface). It reminds me of the busy Milano cafés with rows of machines and white shirted baristas who pump out perfect coffees at stunning speeds.
Invalid Link Removed
A real Cappucino has a firm rounded froth that swells gently over the top of the cup, and not the fluffy mountain of of airy foam that amateurish joints peddle to the unknowing.
It's also what makes a real macchiato so good, the texture makes all the difference as you don't really pour any milk in, just the settled foam that has been sitting a bit in the warming jug.
I love this stuff.
Very true about uneven tamps, water follows the path of least resistance and will flow too quickly through the cake.
BTW never tamp with the Mr Coffee stovetop machines, they are designed to have the basket filled to the top with loose espresso grind.
I saw something cool at a friend's new coffee shop last week, a tamper that was spring loaded, with a kind of base to rest the portafilter on. The idea being if you are rushed or inexperienced you'll get a level tamp with approximately the correct tamp every time. It worked really well by nothing beats experience and a regular metal tamp.
I got my espresso chops at a bar I set up and ran for a while, as part of a large group. I finagled the of a loan spanking new two group fully manual machine from the Illy rep, who at the time was working to get market share for the brand (very long interesting story behind the family that started that and Hausbrandt label in Torino, and of a brother who registered the Illy name in Switzerland so the parent company had to rename it in this market. )
I any case, the machine was brutally unforgiving and if you made a poor tamp you would get a cup of water or a few dribbles of mud. But once you got it right you got a crema and flavours that were incredibly complex and perfectly balanced.
I too have never had a great espresso from a fully automatic machine, semis are better but nothing beats a good manual machine.
A big thing in Italy is to blend beans from different regions, every bar or Caffé has their own 'secret' ratio of two or three different Arabicas, and some use a bit of Robusto as well.
Some commercial grinders have the tamp connected to the hopper, you fill the basket and lift it to tamp. Never use these as it is impossible to get a correct tamp.
Most people outside of Italy get espressos wrong from the start by adjusting the machine to pour too much water through, so following the 20 second guide they get the wrong speed of pour, and a coffee that is simply too large to ever taste proper due to the wrong ratio of crema to liquid. An espresso is two sips, basta, the second one taken as in one motion as you half turn to say goodbye to he barista and leave the establishment. Master this and you will be accepted into Italian culture.
It's been a while since I worked with an espresso machine so I did a search to confirm the amount of coffee supposed to be used per shot, and came across this beautiful site from one of the absolute top machine manufacturers. It has some beautifully shot videos, the one on how to steam milk should be required viewing (even if it is often taught to pull down the jug as the milk starts to froth to keep the wand just under the surface). It reminds me of the busy Milano cafés with rows of machines and white shirted baristas who pump out perfect coffees at stunning speeds.
Invalid Link Removed
A real Cappucino has a firm rounded froth that swells gently over the top of the cup, and not the fluffy mountain of of airy foam that amateurish joints peddle to the unknowing.
It's also what makes a real macchiato so good, the texture makes all the difference as you don't really pour any milk in, just the settled foam that has been sitting a bit in the warming jug.
I love this stuff.
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What a difference tamping makes! The coffee comes out much darker and (in my opinion) can I say thicker? To think of all the coffee I wasted over the years!
I looked up my Maxim Expres and found one on eBay for $25 so I guess it's pretty lo-tech. I read the brewing instructions but found nothing on tamping or tamper tools. In the mean time, I found an old, blue shot glass from a Sambuca company that seems to do the job. It's not exactly round, more like a square with rounded corners, but it's wide enough to fit the basket and just deep enough for me to push it down with my thumb, and thick enough so it won't break and amputate it. Hard to play bass with no anchor
This is an interesting thread. I very much cherish my cup of coffee. But I would be broker than broke if I was as picky about it as you folks. 
I'm going to have to steer clear of your recommendations lest I develop an expensive habit.
I'm going to have to steer clear of your recommendations lest I develop an expensive habit.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
This is an interesting thread. I very much cherish my cup of coffee. But I would be broker than broke if I was as picky about it as you folks.
Every morning I grind Eight O'Clock beans in my Kitchen Aid grinder and heat water to 200 degrees F. Beans and water are combined in my trusty french press and a few minutes later that goes into a Stanley thermos. Although I've got an espresso machine, moka pot and pour over funnel those things are rarely used. You guys are nuts.
I find this thread amusing. I love coffee and love to get a "gourmet cup" every once in a while, but we put our Eight O'Clock grind in a drip maker and set the timer so that the pot is just finishing when we come down first thing in the morning. When I want a treat, I'll do a pour over.
I, too, used Eight O'Clock Columbia beans for years, but my box store, BJ's price club, did a bait and switch and I've been looking for a new favorite daily brand. I brew 24 ozs in my old paper filtered Melita every morning and drink it while driving to work. As far as my recent interest in expresso, I've had the machine for years, and the price of good beans is a hell of a lot cheaper than the wine, booze and beer I used to consume. It's a matter of taste like, eh, bass strings or rosins?
Like I said, my morning coffee is a mug full of two scoops of a good local coffee in a mug with water poured over the top, I drink it when the grounds settle, or a pot made with a Mr Coffee stovetop machine. Nothing could be simpler.
For espresso it's at a Café or restaurant after a meal. It's practically impossible to do properly at home so I don't try.
For espresso it's at a Café or restaurant after a meal. It's practically impossible to do properly at home so I don't try.
I enjoy coffee sometimes but here in France it is a really strong dark roast so I usually add sugar to it. Another fact that I found pretty funny was that many French people prefer the Italian coffee maker to the French coffee press.
scottfeldstein
Roots and fifths and a little extra.
Ten years ago or so I wanted to know more about coffee. I checked out every book on the subject at my local library, and read most of them. Some time later I inherited a decent home espresso machine--a Saeco. A friend gave it to me after I fixed his computer. He apparently didn't use it much. I began using it exclusively. I lived alone at the time, so there was no need for more than one or two servings on a given day. I survived on espresso, Americano and the occasional cappuccino. I'm sure my methods weren't up to professional standards, but I felt i was doing well for myself. For a time I started using a French press. I liked it a lot. Such a rich cup. I never could bring myself to pay for an expensive electric burr grinder, so I used a hand cranked one. Still have it.
I lost the espresso machine somewhere between moves and girlfriend breakups and never replaced it. These days I'm slumming it in the Keurig world. It's wasteful and produces very ... mediocre results. One day soon when I'm feeling flush perhaps I'll upgrade my cup again. Hell, even a cheap press would improve things considerably.
Anyway, as a reward for anyone who actually read all that here's my favorite quote on the subject of coffee. It's Garrison Keillor.
Yes, I know people who have quit coffee and who will tell you in their small tremulous voices How Much Better They Feel and goody for them, but to me living without coffee is like trying to climb up the outside of your house using suction cups. Why not just use the stairs?
I lost the espresso machine somewhere between moves and girlfriend breakups and never replaced it. These days I'm slumming it in the Keurig world. It's wasteful and produces very ... mediocre results. One day soon when I'm feeling flush perhaps I'll upgrade my cup again. Hell, even a cheap press would improve things considerably.
Anyway, as a reward for anyone who actually read all that here's my favorite quote on the subject of coffee. It's Garrison Keillor.
Yes, I know people who have quit coffee and who will tell you in their small tremulous voices How Much Better They Feel and goody for them, but to me living without coffee is like trying to climb up the outside of your house using suction cups. Why not just use the stairs?
