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Didn't get paid for a gig :(

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#41
Warrior_Bass said:
And God deserves to be worshipped. OP got a raw deal, for sure. But it rubs me raw when people cry "ethics", "where's my money" and "burn the pastor" when biblically everybody's wrong to begin with. If you're not willing to start there, then you don't belong in the ministry. I'm not against payment, in certain contexts, but we're all supposed to worship, so are we all supposed to get paid?
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It rubs me wrong when someone in the church doesn't follow through on their earthly commitments. I'm pretty sure that it grieves the Almighty to have someone invoke His name or exploit someone's faith to bilk another of their due. That person would be better off with a millstone around their neck.
Even though you can invoke "turn the other cheek" or "give your brother your shirt also", it doesn't mean that what the person did was right or justified. Just because we're all sinners, doesn't mean that someone has the right to sin against you. It's still wrong, even if you forgive the person.

It seems to me that the OP, did the first step in Matthew 15. He hasn't been gone there with others, and that should be the next step. Confront the leader of the event with the pastor, elders, fellow musicians, etc. And if that doesn't work, the OP should do what the others say and take it to the church.

I believe strongly in the quote by Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
 
#42
Go to the Pastor?
I'm sure he's in on it.
Going the legal route?
Did you have a contract, NOT a verbal one? Good luck with that.
Getting up in front of the congregation?
Love it. Just be sure to post it on Youtube.

I know that in the place in our mind we'd like to think the good guy always win and justice and hard work always pay off...most times. There is however, that outside chance that maybe, just possibly, you lost this one.
 
#43
The Bible also says the laborer is entitled to his wages. In BOTH testaments (Leviticus 19:13 and 1 Timothy 5:18).

Of all places where a man's word should be his bond, it's in a church. Assuming the person(s) who stiffed the OP did so intentionally, they are in the wrong regardless of whether the contract was verbal or written. They don't have a leg to stand on, they are compromising their witness and the witness of their church to the "unchurched" world, and they deserve whatever is coming. It's as simple as that.
 
#45
So many posts I can't keep up...

I agree with most of you...the OP got a bad deal. I'm implying though that you are giving bad advice in such a context. If a bar owner screwed you over, I wouldn't tell you go pray about it and then give him bible verses. Yet some of you are using bar gig etiquette where it isn't appropriate.

If the guy isn't religious, then the church was at fault for hiring him in the first place.

I agree people should be paid for services, but not for worshipping God.

Attacking me, the bible, or the church, is the wrong way to go. You come into my territory, you play by my rules. If you aren't willing to abide, then don't come here. It's your freedom to do that. But don't tread in my territory and redefine everything that I believe is true based on your very limited experience of so called religion. Context is everything, and most of you are far from it here.
 
#47
guys, can we leave the religious mumbo-jumbo and biblical references out of this? I'm sure there is no god, and find religious discussions childish. But those are my personal views, and they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand and a public forum in general. Just because you lead a flock of sheep doesn't give you higher moral standing. In fact, there are lot's of examples to the contrary. Please, let's keep the discussion to what the OP can do to get paid, or at least expose those who didn't pay him for the lowlife(s) he(they) is(are).
 
#48
Warrior_Bass said:
So many posts I can't keep up...

I agree with most of you...the OP got a bad deal. I'm implying though that you are giving bad advice in such a context. If a bar owner screwed you over, I wouldn't tell you go pray about it and then give him bible verses. Yet some of you are using bar gig etiquette where it isn't appropriate.

If the guy isn't religious, then the church was at fault for hiring him in the first place.

I agree people should be paid for services, but not for worshipping God.

Attacking me, the bible, or the church, is the wrong way to go. You come into my territory, you play by my rules. If you aren't willing to abide, then don't come here. It's your freedom to do that. But don't tread in my territory and redefine everything that I believe is true based on your very limited experience of so called religion. Context is everything, and most of you are far from it here.
Click to expand...

The guy was a musician providing a foundation for worshipers. Just like the carpenter who built the pulpit.

Not attacking you. Just saying I cannot reconcile what you are saying with Christian teaching.
 
#49
Warrior_Bass said:
So many posts I can't keep up...
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Here you go, just read this and learn.

fingerbun said:
But the people who should be most upset by this, in my view, should be us Christians. It's our God whose name is being tarnished by this fundamental wrong. And to be honest, stealing from the guy then trying say it's his fault because he should not have expected payment, really upsets me.
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#50
Sounds like there are a number of conflicting views here. I won't go into my opinion about churches or other faith-based orgs and their responsibilities in these cases, but I will say this: We've all been there, buddy. Some have been stiffed by religious groups like churches, others (like me) by clubs and bars.

In the case of bars, it's almost comical at times. Sometimes they say your money is in the safe, and the person with the combination or keys to the safe didn't show up tonight. Sometimes they'll say business was slow tonight and we didn't make enough to cover it. Or that everyone used credit cards so we don't have any cash on hand. Sometimes they'll say they paid your agent or manager already.

But they can't wait to pay up when I pay them a visit in the morning.

In the future, if you're not 100% sure about the reliability of those who are supposed to be paying you, you may want to think about using a simple boilerplate contract. Any time you provide a service for money, you're supposed to get that money. You are a professional, providing a professional service or product in exchange for renumeration. You play music, they pay you; It's a dynamic that's worth protecting.
 
#51
OP got stiffed by a 'band leader'. The Pastor may or may not be aware of the issue, but he's tainted by association.

The OP has drawn a line under the issue in terms of getting any money or future work. So, there's no cash coming.

However, there is still one area of 'revenge' available. Write blog entries about the situation, how it affected you, and how it's made you change the way you approach future work. And name names, including the church or other locations where you played. Make it a positive message, but include your disappointment. Post the blog, and forget all about it.

In a few weeks it will be climbing the search engine rankings, and the church will become aware of it. Sit back and enjoy the fun when they call offering to settle if you take the post down...

(Yes, I've done this once, relating to a business contract. We eventually got paid....)
 
#53
Warrior_Bass said:
Attacking me, the bible, or the church, is the wrong way to go. You come into my territory, you play by my rules. If you aren't willing to abide, then don't come here. It's your freedom to do that. But don't tread in my territory and redefine everything that I believe is true based on your very limited experience of so called religion. Context is everything, and most of you are far from it here.
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Dude, you made a religious post in a public forum, and an international one at that, so hardly your personal turf. People are calling you out on it, and rightfully so. Keep your beliefs to yourself, and I'm sure others will do the same. It's called mutual respect.

Prior to your post, people were suggesting ways to get paid. One of the best was to talk to the pastor in his own language - biblical quotes. That's a great idea. I once used a similar tactic to get paid for overtime. I was a contractor, but the boss kept saying professionals don't get paid OT. Well one day he addressed the whole company and said that 'professionals on a career path in this company should consider
OT as part of their job". So the next day I said "I'm a contractor, not on a career path here, please pay me OT." And he did, because I used his words against him.
 
#54
Hawkbone said:
Dude, you made a religious post in a public forum, and an international one at that, so hardly your personal turf. People are calling you out on it, and rightfully so. Keep your beliefs to yourself, and I'm sure others will do the same. It's called mutual respect.

Prior to your post, people were suggesting ways to get paid. One of the nest was to talk to the pastor in his own language - biblical quotes. That's a great idea. I once used a similar tactic to get paid for overtime. I was a contractor, but the boss kept saying professionals don't get paid OT. Well one day he addressed the whole company and said that 'professionals on a career path in this company should consider
OT as part of their job". So the next day I said "I'm a contractor, not on a career path here, please pay me OT." And he did, because I used his words against him.
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If you come to my house and track mud on my floors, I'm going to call you out on it. The same is being done here. One comes into the church and does things apart from the way the church is established. If you aren't willing to concede that such a thing as context exists in all walks of life, than you have much bigger issues. You can't talk about church gigs without understanding why they do what they do, which should be solely based on the bible. If not, then something is wrong.
 
#55
Hawkbone said:
guys, can we leave the religious mumbo-jumbo and biblical references out of this? I'm sure there is no god, and find religious discussions childish. But those are my personal views, and they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand and a public forum in general. Just because you lead a flock of sheep doesn't give you higher moral standing. In fact, there are lot's of examples to the contrary. Please, let's keep the discussion to what the OP can do to get paid, or at least expose those who didn't pay him for the lowlife(s) he(they) is(are).
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
#56
Warrior_Bass said:
So many posts I can't keep up...

I agree with most of you...the OP got a bad deal. I'm implying though that you are giving bad advice in such a context. If a bar owner screwed you over, I wouldn't tell you go pray about it and then give him bible verses. Yet some of you are using bar gig etiquette where it isn't appropriate.

If the guy isn't religious, then the church was at fault for hiring him in the first place.

I agree people should be paid for services, but not for worshipping God.

Attacking me, the bible, or the church, is the wrong way to go. You come into my territory, you play by my rules. If you aren't willing to abide, then don't come here. It's your freedom to do that. But don't tread in my territory and redefine everything that I believe is true based on your very limited experience of so called religion. Context is everything, and most of you are far from it here.
Click to expand...

Warrior, I don't want you to think that I'm attacking you, the church or the Bible at all. Not in any way. But, you do make it sound like there are different rules and different standards for churches than for the rest of us. Just because it's a church doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. In my opinion, anyway. I'm pretty sure that the same standards of basic human decency apply to everyone - and if that fails, then I'm absolutely SURE the same laws will apply.

Of course, let's not forget that (if I remember correctly) OP didn't say it was his church that stiffed him, it was the organizer of the event. So the whole church discussion may be a moot point. It may have been a simple misunderstanding between two people, for all I know. I'll bet that pastor would've signed a contract before I agreed to play, though.
 
#57
Warrior_Bass said:
If you come to my house and track mud on my floors, I'm going to call you out on it. The same is being done here. One comes into the church and does things apart from the way the church is established. If you aren't willing to concede that such a thing as context exists in all walks of life, than you have much bigger issues. You can't talk about church gigs without understanding why they do what they do, which should be solely based on the bible. If not, then something is wrong.
Click to expand...
Who is coming in to your church here?
 
#58
Warrior_Bass said:
If you come to my house and track mud on my floors, I'm going to call you out on it. The same is being done here. One comes into the church and does things apart from the way the church is established. If you aren't willing to concede that such a thing as context exists in all walks of life, than you have much bigger issues. You can't talk about church gigs without understanding why they do what they do, which should be solely based on the bible. If not, then something is wrong.
Click to expand...

Hey congrats man, you're writing in tongues!
 
#59
I had a similar experence a few years ago when my band was hired (and one member helped organize) a benefit concert for a local charity. One member of our band is also a member of a Naitonal Act Oldies group and used his contacts to fill the bill. My band was hired to open the second half. As I said it was really our first big gig (many more since then) and we spent a lot of time rehearsing to make it perfect, and even hired my son( a great lead player to fill in as the one who was in the Naitonal Act would not be able to perform that day because he was paying with the other group.
They booked us a few months early and were originally going to pay us $3K as it got closer they asked us to play for half that as their expenses increased and they needed help. We agreed because of the venue, and who we were booked with giving us more credibility in booking future gigs.
BOttom line, at the end of the day, everyone got paid except for us. First it was they did not have enough cash on hand, then they were sending the check the following week, then the last one was the lady that had hired us retired and no one knew what she promised and they expected us to donate whatever fee we were supposed to get back to the charity.
I cannot tell you how steamed I was then ( and still am!!) about this. Collecting money for a charity by theft is wrong. As I aid this was a few years ago and the band leader let it go and consequently so did I in the interest of reputation and future bookings (not with these folks though:)) I told him I will not perform for this organization again until they pay me what they stole and pay again upfront for the new gig. Also we have since made a policy of not working for free EVER... if a charity books us they get a reduced rate, but neveer for free.
 
#60
Back to the matter at hand!

He was told he WOULD BE PAID! He has NOT BEEN PAID! In addition, seems he's GETTING THE RUNAROUND! So what should he do?? If he wasn't going to be paid from the upstart, they should have made it known beforehand! I personally believe he was manipulated! He can either go after his money or chalk it up as a loss and take it as a lesson learned!
 
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