Didn't get paid for a gig :(

[jmattbassplaya]

If the leader of the event didn't know whether it was going to be paid, he should have told the OP up front. If the guy was going to play as a volunteer, he should have been told up front. Regardless of your religious background, to tell one person one thing and then do another is dishonest, no matter what you wrap it up in. I'm sure that pay was part of the decision. If he just wanted to worship, he could do it at his own church or according to his calling, not at the calling of someone who said they were hiring him.

It's one thing to show up at church to worship. It's another thing to attend regular rehearsals, wake up at the crack of dawn to drive to church, and being there for there for most of the day.

+1

I personally find the idea that churches can't (or shouldn't) pay their musicians quite laughable. In my home town, it's not uncommon to drive down a mile stretch of road and pass five to six multi million dollar churches. It's clear that these churches are ran like businesses and that they use musicians as a means to help their business prosper and gain new 'customers'. If some musicians want to volunteer their services for their church then that's fine, but if they say they'll pay someone for their services then they need to pay them and not try to hide behind their scripture as reasons why they shouldn't pay the other party.

 

[Southpaw5]

+1

I personally find the idea that churches can't (or shouldn't) pay their musicians quite laughable. In my home town, it's not uncommon to drive down a mile stretch of road and pass five to six multi million dollar churches. It's clear that these churches are ran like businesses and that they use musicians as a means to help their business prosper and gain new 'customers'. If some musicians want to volunteer their services for their church then that's fine, but if they say they'll pay someone for their services then they need to pay them and not try to hide behind their scripture as reasons why they shouldn't pay the other party.

+1 organized religion is BIG business. I find claims otherwise to be rather asinine, or at the very least ignorant.

 

[bassistjoe93]

Woah 8 pages. I should've mentioned earlier that this event was a celebration in honor of the leader's mother who passed away last year. It wasn't a church service but we played the gospel music in honor of her. I didn't mean to bring the religion part in here! I'm a volunteer church musician myself almost every Sunday in addition to playing paying gigs in fridays. If he had merely told me he couldn't pay me from the get go, I wouldn't have had a problem, it was more of the principle of the matter of not paying me after payment had been promised that got under my skin.

 

[Kwesi]

If he had merely told me he couldn't pay me from the get go, I wouldn't have had a problem, it was more of the principle of the matter of not paying me after payment had been promised that got under my skin.

The important part for those who missed it. Yes, it needs the extra emphasis.

 

[MX21]

Just send the church a bill. Probably much easier that way for them to process it and cut a check.

 

[RBrownBass]

I agree with most of you...the OP got a bad deal. I'm implying though that you are giving bad advice in such a context. If a bar owner screwed you over, I wouldn't tell you go pray about it and then give him bible verses. Yet some of you are using bar gig etiquette where it isn't appropriate.

What part of "It doesn't matter if YOU think worship service gigs are different from bar gigs or not... They are one and the same to anyone who isn't part of your faith or is contracted to do a job" do you not understand, pal???

If the guy isn't religious, then the church was at fault for hiring him in the first place.

What part of "It doesn't matter if he's religious or not- if he's been promised payment, he ought to receive it" do you not understand, pal?

I agree people should be paid for services, but not for worshipping God.

What part of "If he's been promised payment, it doesn't matter whether YOU agree or not" do you not understand, pal? If you agree to be cheaped by your church because they "don't pay folks to worship", fine. Ask that of no one else.

You come into my territory

You have no territory that anyone here is bound to respect. This is an Internet message board, not a doublewide with "Roll Tide" on the side.

The OP stated it was a GIG. all you religious doublespeak is invalid to the argument. :scowl:

+1,000,000

 

[RBrownBass]

I really, really hope this dude isn't actually Warrior basses. I've heard some things about that company wrt pushing religion.

 

[fingerbun]

You've definitely gigged waaaaay longer than I have but our experiences have been different. My post was not a dig at religion as a whole only relaying my what I've found out first-hand. Maybe my area is weird but the small churches around here are questionable with cash. That's just how it is and why I'm reluctant to find another one even if they seem to make up most of the gigs around here. I did said, in my first post, that it was my experience and not a general rule.

Also, I think it's important to distinguish that even if I was bashing churches, it wouldn't mean I have anything against religion. To me, at least, churches and religion are completely separate entities. In fact a lot of my religious friends don't go to church because they disagree with what many teach. I think that shows how separate the two can be.

If you've found a lot of small churches near you made specific promises to pay and didn't honour then, then your first post makes perfect sense. If you've found that churches just don't pay much, different topic. I don't have an issue with churches not being places where you can get rich.

I also think that whole concept is very different in the US from Australia. I have friends who have moved there because it is possible to make a fulltime living playing church music. Generally that's hard to do here. I started out as a church musician but it was pubs and concerts that paid the rent when I paid it that way.

 

[fingerbun]

+1

I personally find the idea that churches can't (or shouldn't) pay their musicians quite laughable. In my home town, it's not uncommon to drive down a mile stretch of road and pass five to six multi million dollar churches. It's clear that these churches are ran like businesses and that they use musicians as a means to help their business prosper and gain new 'customers'. If some musicians want to volunteer their services for their church then that's fine, but if they say they'll pay someone for their services then they need to pay them and not try to hide behind their scripture as reasons why they shouldn't pay the other party.

+1 organized religion is BIG business. I find claims otherwise to be rather asinine, or at the very least ignorant.

Some churches are a big business. Not all. And even those that have large cashflow aren't necessarily profiteering. I don't think it helps to tar all churches with the same brush.

I have seen churches that raised money which was then spent on assisting refugees to settle here, feeding the homeless, running shelters for battered wives, etc. We all know that the Salvation Army does a lot of good, for example.

And I have seen one or two where the senior pastor drives a BMW.....

I have no problem with a church raising money per se and I will happily donate my time and money to a church that does good things with it. I believe God has blessed me and I want for nothing - except for maybe a 5 string US Fender Jazz!!!! It's good karma to give back. You can read a church's financial statements and get a feel for whether money is a means or an end for what they do.

This is not really a religious point, it's a money management point. I imagine most people would apply a pretty similar thought process to investigations of charities, for example.

A church that doesn't honour it's commitments is probably one I won't donate to.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Agreed. I definitely didn't mean to give the impression that all churches are well off and are more than capable to pay people who provide services for them. That said, I find it funny that some people will defend all churches as if they're all struggling just to put food in the pastor's mouth. I can only speak from my experiences and for my home town once again, but most pastors I know are ones who drive Mercedes or BMW's and they live in the upper class parts of town. The idea of these pastors expecting others to sacrifice their time and talents for free just seems silly when they make bank off of their religion.

 

[chuck norriss]

You paid the fee to have that person out of the rest of your life.

 

[Kwesi]

If you've found a lot of small churches near you made specific promises to pay and didn't honour then, then your first post makes perfect sense.

Precisely what I was trying to say.

If you've found that churches just don't pay much, different topic. I don't have an issue with churches not being places where you can get rich.

Agreed on both counts.

I also think that whole concept is very different in the US from Australia. I have friends who have moved there because it is possible to make a fulltime living playing church music. Generally that's hard to do here. I started out as a church musician but it was pubs and concerts that paid the rent when I paid it that way.

I feel that making living as a full time church musician here, while possible, is a very longshot but I don't think I've played out enough to say that with any real certainty.

 

[NWB]

Woah 8 pages. I should've mentioned earlier that this event was a celebration in honor of the leader's mother who passed away last year. It wasn't a church service but we played the gospel music in honor of her. I didn't mean to bring the religion part in here! I'm a volunteer church musician myself almost every Sunday in addition to playing paying gigs in fridays. If he had merely told me he couldn't pay me from the get go, I wouldn't have had a problem, it was more of the principle of the matter of not paying me after payment had been promised that got under my skin.

I have to ask if the church pastor was involved in these beforehand monetary discussions?

 

[bassmanrocke]

I think the OP should get a collection plate and stand out on the sidewalk in front of the Church before Sunday service with a sign that says, "help this church pay its debt... to me." If you don't quickly get paid enough contributions to cover what's owed you, I would be surprised if a church official wasn't out there with a check in hand to avoid the inevitable discussions by the congregation. I would also make sure that you collected enough to cover your additional gas costs and time spent. Even if you didn't get your due rewards at least you would know you had made a stand.

 

[fingerbun]

I feel that making living as a full time church musician here, while possible, is a very longshot but I don't think I've played out enough to say that with any real certainty.

Making a living off music in any setting is a long shot, but I have various friends who live in your country because they can make a living as church musicians there but not here.

I'm sorry you've been ripped off by churches at times. I guess there are lowlife types everywhere, but please believe me we are not all like that.

 

[Kwesi]

I'm sorry you've been ripped off by churches at times. I guess there are lowlife types everywhere, but please believe me we are not all like that.

I don't. I've got a enough good church going friends to know that . There are bad apples in every basket.

 

[jthurston]

The OP stated it was a GIG. all you religious doublespeak is invalid to the argument. :scowl:

Exactly right. Religion has nothing to do with it. From OP's most recent post, it kinda sounds like the church itself had little to do with it.

Bottom line, as others have said already: OP was promised a paid gig, performed the gig, and was not paid for it. There's no excuse for that. Unfortunately, there's little that can be done about now, realistically. OP probably doesn't have much of a legal case, especially if he left a "keep the money" nastygram in the guy's voicemail.

But going forward, OP should probably A) refrain from doing business with that individual again, if possible, and B) consider using a contract when agreeing to perform.



ALL OF THAT BEING SAID...

There's also this discussion about the church and whether or not they should have to pay, or something. To be honest, I don't really understand the argument. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, to assert that a church (or any organization of any kind, religous or secular) gets to play by some other set of rules when contracting musicians to perform at an event. This was not a worship service, this was a paid performance, so even if you think the musicians should donate their time, that's not the case here. And even if it was, it's not relevant to this discussion, as the original complaint was with the band leader and not with the church. The pastor may or may not have been complicent in the non-payment, I don't know. But even then, the complaint isn't against the church (or against the Church, if you see what I mean). It's against the non-paying band leader.

So getting all defensive about the church, pastors in general, or the whole Christian gestalt is really pointless to this discussion. Acting indignant because you believe that everyone is out to get Christians is just plain silly, and isn't helpful to anyone. By "you" in this context, I'm just referring to people in general, not flaming anyone in particular. I was trying to hold my proverbial tongue on that, but it just kept on and on and on...

 

[BigMac5]

I say that churches should definitely have to pay, just like anyone else.
In fact we could solve the nations financial woes by TAXING THE CHURCH.
End the free ride.

I agree, but this is not the place to discuss these things imho.

 

[bassistjoe93]

I have to ask if the church pastor was involved in these beforehand monetary discussions?

Yes. The pastor (who was not the band leader btw, the band leader was his son who had initially said the night of the gig that he'd pay me) pulled me aside and said they'd pay me the upcoming Monday. I was fully expecting to do this gig as a favor to my friend, I'm an 18 year old musician so I don't feel like I can be too demanding. (Trying to get people to take me seriously as an 18 year old serious musician is challenging enough! :/ ) Then payment was promised, promises were broken, yada yada yada

 

[NWB]

Yes. The pastor (who was not the band leader btw, the band leader was his son who had initially said the night of the gig that he'd pay me) pulled me aside and said they'd pay me the upcoming Monday. I was fully expecting to do this gig as a favor to my friend, I'm an 18 year old musician so I don't feel like I can be too demanding. (Trying to get people to take me seriously as an 18 year old serious musician is challenging enough! :/ ) Then payment was promised, promises were broken, yada yada yada

OK, thanks for clarifying that point!