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Dingwall Owners Club

Wasn't referencing your post. I agree we should be able to have a discussion, especially as it affects our wallets. Just reminding we don't want the conversation shut down if it veers into political discourse.
Jeff, I entirely agree.

I guess one comment I will make is that we all know these particular basses represent a comparative value far more than what they cost yesterday.
 
All politics aside, yes it's important for people here (in the US and outside who might sell into the US) to know that this is going to impact you. No one wants to pay more for their instrument, but it's the current reality we're living in. If you're a vendor selling into the US depending on your location it will impact your sales. And if you're a retail guy, you're stuck in the middle, you'll both lose sales and have some angry customers...and 20% is a lot to try to soak up given margins are thin these days.

I hope that no matter what the shake-out is, that the window of this situation is short.
 
This is a topic about the forum topic of these basses; a topic concerning the purchasing of these basses in the USA. It doesn’t effect other countries but I would think those in the USA would want to know...
It will definitely affect other countries- a lot of Chinese-made music gear is imported into Canada from US-based corporations. We are small enough that when America gets a cold, we sneeze.

I'm sure that it's the same to some extent in Europe and the UK, although price increases on Fender and Squire will actually help smaller local vendors that import straight from China into their home markets.

Unfortunately, Dingwall isn't competing in the same market segment with Squier or low-end Fenders- how many people will eyeball a 20% increase on a CV Jazz, and decide to spring for an SP instead?

I doubt that the loss of sales would be one-to-one, but if the tariff did result in a 20% loss of sales in the US market, that would be a significant hit on Sheldon's gross. The only plus I can see as a Dingwall fan, is that waiting lists might go down a bit, and upward price pressure should boost the resale value on existing models.
 
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Or... perhaps production relocates to other countries. ?
Of course. I would think that depends on how long the tariffs last, especially in such a volatile environment.

Dollar store crap can be re-sourced from India in the blink of an eye, but I would think that moving the production of high-value products like musical instruments is much harder. Particularly in the case of high-end stuff like Dingwall basses.

It's easy enough to relocate CAD drawings, but setting up quality control agreements and distribution networks would take a lot longer.

At least in the short term, I imagine that smaller companies will try to hunker down and wait it out.
 
Of course. I would think that depends on how long the tariffs last, especially in such a volatile environment.

Dollar store crap can be re-sourced from India in the blink of an eye, but I would think that moving the production of high-value products like musical instruments is much harder. Particularly in the case of high-end stuff like Dingwall basses.

It's easy enough to relocate CAD drawings, but setting up quality control agreements and distribution networks would take a lot longer.

At least in the short term, I imagine that smaller companies will try to hunker down and wait it out.

Agreed. It’s definitely not unheard of. Time will tell.
 
It will definitely affect other countries- a lot of Chinese-made music gear is imported into Canada from US-based corporations. We are small enough that when America gets a cold, we sneeze.

I'm sure that it's the same to some extent in Europe and the UK, although price increases on Fender and Squire will actually help smaller local vendors that import straight from China into their home markets.

Unfortunately, Dingwall isn't competing in the same market segment with Squier or low-end Fenders- how many people will eyeball a 20% increase on a CV Jazz, and decide to spring for an SP instead?

I doubt that the loss of sales would be one-to-one, but if the tariff did result in a 20% loss of sales in the US market, that would be a significant hit on Sheldon's gross. The only plus I can see as a Dingwall fan, is that waiting lists might go down a bit, and upward price pressure should boost the resale value on existing models.
Good point that it can effect other countries. I was thinking basses as of right now. Major music distribution via USA importers such as Starin/Behringer took care of this by announcing price increases across the board for MAP as well as dealer cost. So it shouldn't effect the sale of their products as long as they have something the customers want. So for many products, it is simply inflationary type cost increase. It is kinda like going to the grocery store over the last 20 years and each year we have seen the price of groceries go up a bit each year. It is only when comparing with several years that people realize the differential. I don’t think it will really have a drastic effect on Dingwall Guitars although it could have more effect on individual dealers. For instance say dealer x buys $150,000 worth of guitars while the tariffs are in place and dealer Y purchased $150,000 worth of guitars before the tariffs or after the tariffs. One can obviously see what would happen to dealer X unless they had significant resources to absorb the loss. I saw it coming but didn't have the resources to make that $150,000 purchase (wish I had of). I dont think people will stop purchasing these guitars simply because they go up in price, but remember that they have not as yet gone up in price. Currently, only the individual importer who has to compete with previously purchased guitars in the market will suffer. Once the marketplace levels out, it will be business as usual to those USA dealers who have the resources. Again, comparatively speaking (compared value to other guitars in their price bracket), IMO these guitars offer a value that exceeds it’s cost, so players are still going to purchase them, even with price increases. Who knows what will happen worldwide over the next several years. Bass players may all be replaced by direct brain synthesists - dont throw bricks at me haha - and there may be no market for basses anymore.
 
If I'm to be brutally honest, I think all higher end instruments are over valued. Not saying you can't justify the purchase, as they are amazing instruments and if it makes you happy, go for it, especially if it's your money maker, but I don't think anything but super exotic builds with super rare materials should exceed the $3000 mark.

I know people need to make money, keep the lights on and put food on the table, but past $3000 seems on the excessive side especially with all the automated processes to help speed up production (of course these are $250,000 machines) and companies like Gibson that spit instruments out at warp speed with hardly any manual labor are valuing themselves out of the market.

Back to China Dingwall, the quality is excellent, a move out of the country would be super risky- I've recently seen LTD do the same thing, Korean examples are top notch, my $900 F-415 has better dressed frets than anything i've seen, but the new Indonesia examples are absolute garbage, in the same realm as rockbass and Ibanez
 
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If I'm to be brutally honest, I think all higher end instruments are over valued.

...I know people need to make money, keep the lights on and put food on the table, but past $3000 seems on the excessive side especially with all the automated processes to help speed up production (of course these are $250,000 machines) and companies like Gibson that spit instruments out at warp speed with hardly any manual labor are valuing themselves out of the market.
I have a friend who makes exotic, high-end custom acoustic instruments- a heavily optioned harp guitar with enough inlays on it can top $20K.

Though hanging out with him, I've been surprised to learn how many heavy hitters in the boutique scene are working part-time, sleep in their shop, or have some other means of support.

If you're an individual creating instruments at the Dingwall/Fodera/FBass/Roscoe level and can't afford much in the way of automated tooling, $3,500 per instrument is a hard price point to hit. Building at that level of perfection is extremely time-consuming. You can contract some of the nasty stuff like finishing out to other specialists, but they aren't giving their services away either.

Getting into CAD is a bear, too. It isn't just about having enough money for the machines. You have to either hire creative professionals who can do the programming, or learn how to do it yourself. Either way, the design and development phase is hugely time-consuming. Paul Reid Smith, Jean Larrivee and Sheldon have managed the transition, but a lot of other ships have sunk on that particular reef.

Gibson isn't really representative of many other guitar brands. Like Martin, they're in a weird branding situation. It almost seems like the more unreasonable their pricing is, the more desirable the product becomes.
 
I propose Sheldon move Combustion production to rural east TN and let me run the plant for him! Very high skilled rednecks around here who do great work and care about what they do!
You may be saying that in half-jest, but these days both counties and states are offering huge tax incentives to manufacturers. Yes, labor will cost more than in China, but with the right kind of deal coupled with state/federal incentive work programs...Lots of companies have moved TO the USA. I briefly investigated a bass cab manufacturing facility, but decided I didn't want to work THAT much nor did I have proper funding.
 
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I have a friend who makes exotic, high-end custom acoustic instruments- a heavily optioned harp guitar with enough inlays on it can top $20K.

Though hanging out with him, I've been surprised to learn how many heavy hitters in the boutique scene are working part-time, sleep in their shop, or have some other means of support.

If you're an individual creating instruments at the Dingwall/Fodera/FBass/Roscoe level and can't afford much in the way of automated tooling, $3,500 per instrument is a hard price point to hit. Building at that level of perfection is extremely time-consuming. You can contract some of the nasty stuff like finishing out to other specialists, but they aren't giving their services away either.

Getting into CAD is a bear, too. It isn't just about having enough money for the machines. You have to either hire creative professionals who can do the programming, or learn how to do it yourself. Either way, the design and development phase is hugely time-consuming. Paul Reid Smith, Jean Larrivee and Sheldon have managed the transition, but a lot of other ships have sunk on that particular reef.

Gibson isn't really representative of many other guitar brands. Like Martin, they're in a weird branding situation. It almost seems like the more unreasonable their pricing is, the more desirable the product becomes.
I get it, unless you are moving guitars left and right, $10,000 seems like a killing, but if it takes you months and months to finish, you aren't walking away with much money.

It's not an easy career path, but I'm saying established companies, with a crew, large shop, machines ect. are valuing themselves as if every single piece is crafted by hand by one person, when in reality, most companies have a sort of assembly line that most of the time consuming grunt work is automated. The neck and fretwork is something that most likely get the most labor intensive, but some companies pleck the neck and finish the ends by hand.

I'm currently having a bass custom built for me, its right around the 3K mark, and nearly all the work is done with a few routers and by hand, he sends out paintwork and occasionally fret slotting.

I got a quote from another company that was $1500 for a well equipped multiscale bass, but how they can do that work for so little makes me wonder if they send out to have bodies and necks CNC'd overseas.


In the end pricing goes like this- If people like it and buy it, keep charging what you charge- It's just unfortunate that larger companies can't come down on their pricing, then again, if they do, demand goes up and quality goes down, when interest drops, the overhead grows and BOOM you're history.
 
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Yeah, just half in jest. It was always my plan to build cabs and slowly expand into retirement. Follow the model of some cab builders except actually deliver product instead of building a great following/ponzi scheme.

Current economic/political constraints aside, Dingwall offshore production will be just fine and business climate will shift back to something we can all live with.
 
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I propose Sheldon move Combustion production to rural east TN and let me run the plant for him! Very high skilled rednecks around here who do great work and care about what they do!

If you need a Canadian on staff I don’t require much to get by these days. I can live in the back store room....

oh wait.....
What’s that darling?!
~gets slapped with bass strap~ yelling happens in background~

....... never mind....

Ok.... so apparently o do require a bit more then that.
 

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