Do you encourage less skilled musicians?

[MegaSwing]

I encourage them to stay with it, learn as much as they can, and to not get distracted by equipment. I never suggest that they play the way I do.

Prime Directive: Be Not a Jackass

 

[Panther]

If they are genuinely trying I'll help and encourage...if they are lazy or the ego gets in the way...I'm done

 

[Wfrance3]

Get good (or don’t). Seek your own level in a way that doesn’t hinder you stretching for better. Don’t be oblivious to a situation where your talent is outclassed (or vice versa). Excuses are for loosers. Repay kindness. Always wear clean underwear in case you get hurt and have to go to the hospital. Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

I try to pay back those that encouraged and had faith in me by doing the same for players I meet, esp. at jam sessions that I host.

There is a subtle difference though between players who are trying to improve and those that don't know they need to improve. For the latter, I just don't want to have to play with them

boy, when I was young it was EZ to see my enthusiasm and dedication. I think that is why they (The good players) took me under their wings.

 

[interp]

I have always been encouraged by players better than myself and I always strive to pay that forward.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Always.....including everytime I look in the mirror...

 

[BassUrges]

As one of those less-skilled musicians, I don’t need encouragement so much as constructive feedback.

I’ve taken a couple of ensemble classes and it has been kind of frustrating that the guitars and drums get feedback but I get told “sounds good” and nothing else. Even when I specifically ask.

Maybe I’m a middle-aged prodigy, but the odds seem pretty long on that.

 

[RustyAxe]

I tend to be quite encouraging, why not? Many players for whom I have great respect helped me along the way. But I draw the line when it comes to playing in my band ... a working band of experienced players isn't the place to "train" a new player. Many posts in the Band Management section of TB seem to indicate that if one has a sub-par player in the band that the band should "work with them". Maybe some band should, but not mine ...

If that's considered "discouraging" it shouldn't be. It's reality. And the encouragement can come by simply saying "We don't think you have the chops to play in this band but keep doing what you're doing, and you'll get there"

 

[TedH]

I try to pay back those that encouraged and had faith in me by doing the same for players I meet, esp. at jam sessions that I host.

There is a subtle difference though between players who are trying to improve and those that don't know they need to improve. For the latter, I just don't want to have to play with them

This, and I would argue that it isn't subtle. I play with a few adult learners (guitar mainly), and the ones who are trying to get better, hear their mistakes, timing issues etc are very different from the ones who are fulfilling their 13yo, little boy dreams of being a bedroom guitar god; it becomes apparent very quickly. I have a ton of time for the former; the latter make me grind my teeth.

 

[Feral Feline]

Im one of those less skilled players. Im in a new country (im American, I moved to the Netherlands 3 years ago) and would love nothing more than to meet some other musicians to jam with and learn from. Between my crippling shyness, the language barrier yet, and this sort of attitude, I fear I may never find people to play with and learn from. More established musicians looking down the length of their nose at me because I sometimes still flub a simple ii v I or a 12 bar blues line doesn't do any favours for any of us.

Ik leernt een kleine beetje Nederlands spratten.

In one month I was able to ask directions, order food, carry on light conversation... in Dutch. If I can do it, so can you.

The hardest part of learning to speak it was asking something in Dutch and being answered immediately in English (most but not all speak it), but I pushed through that barrier until despite my obvious accent, Nederlanders would respond in their native language.

I'll tell you, it's much easier to learn Dutch than Chinese.

The cliché that music is a language is true. So, I encourage you to learn Dutch just the same as you've learned to play bass.


Alas, my Dutch and bass playing have both detiorated, and neither were great to begin with!


I know a little Dutch.
He moved to Canada in his teens, and we're still friends decades later. Alas, he was a poor language teacher — the only thing he ever taught me rhymed with "strand" (beach), its meaning rhymes with spit in English...


On topic:
Do I encourage less-skilled musicians?
No, there are enough less-skilled musicians of which I am one.
I encourage all musicians to become more-skilled.

 

[JakobT]

Being a less skilled bass player myself, I greatly appreciate advice and guidance from more experienced and talented musicians than myself. In my current band the other members are vastly more experienced than I am, but have never made me feel less than an equal member of the band. This makes me less nervous, and improves my performance. I’m also fortunate enough to be a member of the Scott’s Bass Lessons Academy, and have met Scott himself on a few occasions. His positive outlook and helpful advice has improved my playing no end. So a big thank you from a relative newbie to all those of you who are willing to give of your time and experience to those of us who haven’t been on the same path as long.

 

[Renaissance]

I think a bunch of complaining about subpar players goes on in here, but I doubt everyone acts the same in person. This is an interweb forum!

I encourage greener players whenever I can. If I can teach someone - I'll gladly do what I can to help.

However, I agree completely with RustyAxe. If the talent isn't there for a working situation I don't feel required to "urge them on". In fact I feel more inclined to "urge them out"! Of course it depends on the type or intent of the band but that should have been determined at the audition.

 

[Kyllsa]

You guys are amazing.

Ik spreek Nederlands, maar soms kan ik niet goed verstaan! I've learned a lot of Dutch; my husband and his in-laws are Dutch, as are most of my friends. It is fortunate - and humbling - that so many here speak such good English. It's less fortunate that the law mandates I learn Dutch, and speaking English doesn't help that =D

I would very much like to find jam sessions to drop by, play, and learn. I do not intend to quit! I get frustrated and feel like I will never learn and all that as I am sure everyone does, but I will keep at it.

In short, this thread generated some wonderful responses. That's pretty awesome!

 

[lokikallas]

I have a point where sharing tips and perhaps breaking down time signatures becomes, “ do your homework” rather than what it should be.

 

[StyleOverShow]

I am the musician that I am through the guidance and help of others.

Least I can do is pass it along.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I've noticed several threads lately complaining about sloppy or unskilled musicians lately. In retrospect, I've (too often, and recently) been guilty of the same. Yes some are just too lazy to challenge themselves to improve....many of us are guilty of that to "some" degree. OR, perhaps they just have different and equally valid life priorities! Many of us will never be world renowned, even if we are pretty darned good. I see it as kind of a sliding scale. I've seen/heard too many musicians trash others seemingly to make themselves feel superior. Maybe we need to realize some musicians do not aspire to the same goals? How many of us have tried to form/join a band where things just didn't match up? I look back to when I was a young, green musician, And to this day I am moved and extremely grateful to those great BP's who encouraged/helped and complimented me on my journey. I have tried to pay it forward, especially w/young musicians. I think dissing others is (in part) a competitive thing. Again, I've been guilty. Just to throw it out there......perhaps we should be a bit more mindful and positive. I'm likely to fail on occasion, but I'm committing to try and be a more positive force with/for those coming up behind us. Feel free to opine. My apologies for not being at my best at times.

Signed: Hoping to be a better man.

I never diss other local musicians outside ofnmy band in person or even by name online. If I do it online in a forum like talkbass it’s always without calling the person out by name or even giving enough detail that someone I personally know would be able to figure out who I was talking about. In person and on social media I’m always positive and encouraging to other bass players even if it’s not genuine because to be honest it’s stupid to be any other way. You don’t want people spreading negative stuff about you or your band. Music isn’t about who’s the best, its not even about being good lol, it’s actually about who you know. So unless your Dream is to be a YouTube solo act I suggest being vague about who you’re talking negatively about on forums and don’t do it at all in person or on social media. I personally believe there’s always something to learn from other musicians even if they are terrible and I’m learning what NOT to do like don’t destroy my sound with too much eq or compression and change my damn strings

As for the guys in my band. Our singer has an lot of god given talent vocally, Guitar wise he’s struggled at times but has gotten a lot better over the years, our lead Guitar player is the most humble Guitar player you’ll meet, he’s as good as the Guitar players he likes (guys like Steph from the deftones) and doesn’t care about solos or prog stuff at all and he’ll happily play stuff that allows me to have fun playing bass. There’s an on ongoing joke in the band about him being a “solid” guitar player. What people outside the band don’t know though is he’s probably the best producer and critic in the studio. There’s a lot of times when I’m like ok sounds good and he’ll say nah this vocal is an issue or the mix has an issue and it always sounds better after the tweak. Our drummer imo is the best drummer I’ve ever played with and he’s the guy in the band that’s getting all the endorsements and comments on social media from big time players. Out of my band members I’d say I’m by far the most schooled musician. I was the band geek in high school and the only one who can site read music. But I’m also the least attractive lol so we all have our ups and downs. There was a point when I was younger when I was pretty cocky but I think whats helped me stay humble is just listening to players who can run circles around me. It’s easy to think you’re great if you only listen to one style of music. Opening for Ryan Martinies band Soften the Glare was humbling and doing Janek Gwizdalas lessons and listening to his music is humbling. Can I play better than sone big time rock players ? Absolutely, but if that’s the standard then im not pushing myself to get better and I’m coming off as a jerk.

 

[AcridSaint]

Please don't shoot me but I find it all to easy to be complacent on the bass for beginners (depending on their style). Rock bass, if you're young there is a good chance this is where you're headed and lets face it a lot of the popular music does not feature anything special on bass. For me after getting my Jack Bruce, John Bohnum and Roger Waters licks down I thought I was a bad ass than I stumbled upon a Weather Report record of my dads (Heavy Weather) got the Jaco instructional movie and was very... very humbled!

Really, this is only if you're seeking out easier tunes. Which is the same for any genre. There are very technically challenging rock bass lines.

 

[JRA]

yes i do: always...no matter what!

I've seen/heard too many musicians trash others seemingly to make themselves feel superior.

IMO: i don't think you're referring to "musicians" per se, but rather the low-self-esteem-vitriol of humans searching for their own "day in the sun/fun." encouraging others (especially when you don't know them) is easy, often polite, safe, and that act alone has 'karmic' implications! karma is not wasted on TB! and you don't have to be a great player to be a great person! thanks for your thread/post!

Many posts in the Band Management section of TB seem to indicate that if one has a sub-par player in the band that the band should "work with them".

all of my posts in band management tend to encourage honest communication and discourage the binary thinking rampant (IMO) on TB. however: just because a member rants about a "sub-par player," why should any of us take a side about which we rarely (if ever) know the 'real deal'. if/when the poster brings it here, he/she is already operating in a small universe with enough baggage that it has 'overwhelmed' the individual who is posting.


then there's this: in all of my years as a musician (going on 55 years!) = i have never heard "a great one" belittle (or destructively criticize) a lesser player. never. ever. and there's a reason for that!

and finally: if any of you have never been in a band/group where you were the 'weak link', i'd venture to say that you haven't grown much as a player. just sayin'!

my two cents/sense.

 

[Gully Foyle]

I encourage every person I know to play an instrument

 

[Member8675309]

I am guilty of bashing only a certain type of musician....the ones who bash other musicians despite the fact that their own musicianship is poor. I suppose this goes for all things hypocritical. And I mean BASH as in purely negative to the point of destruction.

I do believe, however, it is just to positively critique (not criticize) another individual, but only if I’ve seen enough in order to make a valid judgement. Even then, it doesn’t happen often, and I’ll often hide the critique in a veil of support. For example, asking the singer/songwriter which bass line he prefers all the while knowing the drummer is messing up the song and bassline #1 is incorrect while #2 is correct. Basically I corrected the drummer without having to say a word to him. Of course, he was good, real good, and I didn’t want to openly critique someone who is technically better versed in music as a science than me, is polite, and is good enough to get it without being explicitly corrected.

As for less skilled musicians, I absolutely support them. I think all musicians should support one another as this is a difficult, and very special thing we do. I grew up in a house with a recording studio here in Nashville. My dad always critiqued my playing. I also paint, so I get TONS of critique there. Doesn’t bother me one bit because I learned a long time ago there is no shame in not knowing if you’re willing to learn, and that every opinion may lead to a realization.

Another example::My buddy doesn’t do art, or paint, but his critique has stuck with me for years now. I was being OCD about some trees I was painting, yes, a tree, and he said, “Nothing in nature is perfect. There will always be a flaw, and that is what makes it true.” Like, what the crap? Totally blew my 21 year old mind away, and has influenced my painting since.

Moral of the longest post I’ve ever written.....Always support, even when critiquing.