Do you encourage less skilled musicians?

[flam]

When I'm face to face with another person who isn't the best but is trying to get better I absolutely encourage them to keep at it. That doesn't mean that dealing with somebody less skilled can't be frustrating, particularly if they don't realize it or don't care. The internet is a good place to vent and discuss those feelings while still being able to do the right thing in person, which I imagine is why it seems like a lot of people just can't stand anybody worse than them.

 

[40Hz]

I encourage everyone. Constantly.

I also separate the person from the music on those rare occasions when I’ll voice some criticism. I don’t bring a lot of ego to what I do. So I don’t project it on other players. I don’t say: “He’s a lousy bass player.” Maybe he or she is an exceptionally fine player who’s having an off night for all I know. I think: “the timing is off coming out of the break,” or “that’s technically a wrong note for that key - was that intentional?” or “what you’re playing right there doesn’t work for me.”

I’ll work with anyone who is trying to better their skills. Just as I know many far better musicians than myself have worked with me over the years.

 

[trevcda]

Encourage? Absolutely. As many have said, anyone actively seeking to better their skill set deserves encouragement. Even tips and pointers, if that encouragement is actively acknowledged. I've even given away spare equipment to people I see with a talent and a burning desire.

If I'm not mistaken, this thread is an off-shoot of the audition thread. I don't think the issue there was so much about encouragement and working with less skilled players, it was about how those players chose to represent themselves and their experience. Both in the advertisement leading to the audition and their preparedness of their own material that they specified the player learn to play at the audition. Those situations are just unacceptable.

I totally agree with what Rusty said; encourage others definitely, but in a working situation I expect your A game not a bunch of excuses. Personally, I have never played in a casual situation. It's always been with a goal in mind. No time for players who try to convince themselves and everyone around them that their lack of talent is actually artistic interpretation.

 

[RustyAxe]

all of my posts in band management tend to encourage honest communication and discourage the binary thinking rampant (IMO) on TB. however: just because a member rants about a "sub-par player," why should any of us take a side about which we rarely (if ever) know the 'real deal'.

Can't argue with you. But ... for a "sub-par player" in a working band situation it comes down to a binary choice ... replace the player who can't pass muster, or leave the band. I get paid to play, as do the other members ... but not to teach fundamentals, or show the other guy where to put his fingers.

 

[JRA]

Can't argue with you. But ... for a "sub-par player" in a working band situation it comes down to a binary choice ... replace the player who can't pass muster, or leave the band. I get paid to play, as do the other members ... but not to teach fundamentals, or show the other guy where to put his fingers.

you've actually been in bands where you were 'threatened' by that scenario?

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

I can't

I tend to be quite encouraging, why not? Many players for whom I have great respect helped me along the way. But I draw the line when it comes to playing in my band ... a working band of experienced players isn't the place to "train" a new player. Many posts in the Band Management section of TB seem to indicate that if one has a sub-par player in the band that the band should "work with them". Maybe some band should, but not mine ...

If that's considered "discouraging" it shouldn't be. It's reality. And the encouragement can come by simply saying "We don't think you have the chops to play in this band but keep doing what you're doing, and you'll get there"

I can't disagree with that at all. If your trying to make a living playing music you need to surround yourself with the best players available.

 

[FrenchBassQC]

Yes and that includes all the skill levels. We are part of the same team you know...

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

Can't argue with you. But ... for a "sub-par player" in a working band situation it comes down to a binary choice ... replace the player who can't pass muster, or leave the band. I get paid to play, as do the other members ... but not to teach fundamentals, or show the other guy where to put his fingers.

There is a time and place to help bring someone along. Invite them to your rehearsals and let them sit in when you are finished. Suggest they attend open jam sessions. Get them to start a band with members at their own playing ability. We have some good friends who had a son who was showing some promise on a Trumpet. His music teacher at school happened to be the wife of Nat Adderly. She invited him to always stop by after school to spend a little time with her husband. Not a bad Mentor to have as a aspiring trumpter.

 

[Joedog]

When I was young my father was a drummer working out of the local musicians hall and I was around tons of older well seasoned musicians. When I decided I wanted to play the bass at 15 years of age all of those musicians encouraged me and shared a great deal of valuable info, tips and help. One of the bass players my father worked with played Upright mostly, but he introduced me to the unlined fretless. I fell in love with the tone and expressivenes of the fretless. He always showed me something to do to improve my electric playing everytime I saw him over 35 years until he passed away. He taught me how to improve my ear to differentiate different notes to allow me to play the fretless without staring at the fingerboard all of the time. I'm comfortable enough to play entire gigs or open mic nights on the blank plank now. Since those excellent players shared with me I have always strove to pass it on. One young bass player was at a local music store I was helping and he stated that he could never play fretless. I said nonsense and asked him if he wanted try it? He sat there with me for almost an hour absorbing what I was telling and showing him. Fast forward a year and he is an accomplished fretless player now. He thanks me for being a cool old dude everytime I see him. I say thank you and share that I was honored that I could pass on what I have to give.
Keep paying it forward all,
Mike

Awesome story!

 

[Lesfunk]

I encourage motivated less skilled musicians. One of my drummer's sons play drums and we let him sit in with us at rehearsal. One of my bass students wanted to play with his friends so I let them use my rehearsal space in my basement (drums, bass amp, guitar amp, PA). If you suck because you're lazy though, forget it.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[RustyAxe]

you've actually been in bands where you were 'threatened' by that scenario?

Threatened? Huh? Why would I be threatened? My point is ... and it should be freekin' clear by now ... all members of a working band need to have competency on their instrument and music knowledge, rehearsals take up valuable time, teaching fundamentals is NOT part of band rehearsal. If I wanted to be a music/bass/guitar/keyboard teacher I'd just hang a shingle and charge by the hour. When I was a young man there were guys who taught me a lot, and I valued their efforts for me. Some became lifelong friends. But ... I never would have presumed to join their band playing at the level I was at ... I couldn't cut it, and knew it.

 

[RustyAxe]

There is a time and place to help bring someone along. Invite them to your rehearsals and let them sit in when you are finished. Suggest they attend open jam sessions. Get them to start a band with members at their own playing ability. We have some good friends who had a son who was showing some promise on a Trumpet. His music teacher at school happened to be the wife of Nat Adderly. She invited him to always stop by after school to spend a little time with her husband. Not a bad Mentor to have as a aspiring trumpter.

Absolutely, and with the exception of rehearsals (no guests at rehearsals, we like it that way), it's pretty much what I do. Invite them to open mics, help them choose a new instrument, introduce them to other players who might be more at their level, back them up (if they ask) at an open mic, show them a new chord or two, invite them one of our monthly kitchen-picking' parties (attended by some of the best guys around, and some of the newest) ... but NOT in the context of my band.

 

[Bass Man Dan]

Do I encourage less-skilled players? Certainly. It's a three part encouragement system: I start by pointing out any and all mistakes that I've observed and encourage them to stop making those mistakes. Any less than professional gear they may have, I encourage them to upgrade all of it. Any music they may have played that I did not care for, I encourage them to listen to and play the music I like. Now that is some encouragement.
I'm just kidding of course! I like the posts in here!

 

[JRA]

Threatened? Huh? Why would I be threatened? My point is ... and it should be freekin' clear by now ... all members of a working band need to have competency on their instrument and music knowledge, rehearsals take up valuable time, teaching fundamentals is NOT part of band rehearsal. If I wanted to be a music/bass/guitar/keyboard teacher I'd just hang a shingle and charge by the hour. When I was a young man there were guys who taught me a lot, and I valued their efforts for me. Some became lifelong friends. But ... I never would have presumed to join their band playing at the level I was at ... I couldn't cut it, and knew it.

sorry about my use of the term 'threatened'...it wasn't meant to be threatening!

i appreciate your sentiment. i've never given lessons at a rehearsal. i don't recall reading on TB/band management where anyone else has ever done that (but i can imagine that it has happened).

a lot of what i read in band management has more to do with being 'schooled'. we've all been schooled...

 

[Ritchie_Darling]

I always encourage anyone who has drive and determination to play....

Lazy people need not apply though.....

Unfortunately, I have encountered the driven who simply have no talent for it....

I had a student who was quite heartbroken when I had to tell him that he just wasn't cut out for music...

I told him that perhaps he was a great painter, or an outstanding tennis player, or even a fantastic orator...

Turns out that he was an excellent cook. Got his degree in culinary arts, and has a restaurant opening in a few weeks...

 

[Flamingo21]

There is a subtle difference though between players who are trying to improve and those that don't know they need to improve. For the latter, I just don't want to have to play with them

+1

 

[40Hz]

I've even given away spare equipment to people I see with a talent and a burning desire.

This! Especially for some of us that have far more gear than we really need. I’ve given away several basses (including a few MIAs) to promising students who couldn’t possibly have swung something better than what they or their families could responsibly afford.

Beginners need the best gear they can get their hands on. So a good sounding and comfortable to play instrument is really important in helping them keep their enthusiasm and spirits up. Those of us with more experience can almost always get at least a respectable performance out of anything within reason. Not so a beginner. They need all the help they can get.

 

[StayLow]

I've noticed several threads lately complaining about sloppy or unskilled musicians lately. In retrospect, I've (too often, and recently) been guilty of the same. Yes some are just too lazy to challenge themselves to improve....many of us are guilty of that to "some" degree. OR, perhaps they just have different and equally valid life priorities! Many of us will never be world renowned, even if we are pretty darned good. I see it as kind of a sliding scale. I've seen/heard too many musicians trash others seemingly to make themselves feel superior. Maybe we need to realize some musicians do not aspire to the same goals? How many of us have tried to form/join a band where things just didn't match up? I look back to when I was a young, green musician, And to this day I am moved and extremely grateful to those great BP's who encouraged/helped and complimented me on my journey. I have tried to pay it forward, especially w/young musicians. I think dissing others is (in part) a competitive thing. Again, I've been guilty. Just to throw it out there......perhaps we should be a bit more mindful and positive. I'm likely to fail on occasion, but I'm committing to try and be a more positive force with/for those coming up behind us. Feel free to opine. My apologies for not being at my best at times.

Signed: Hoping to be a better man.

Whether it's sports, fitness, finance, business, love life, or music, those who've put the work in to be functional at a given level can easily spot those who have not.

That's not a competitive thing, it's factual. It's not lifting yourself up by calling others out (depends how it's done, on the tone and spirit because some who vent are obviously drama queens as well as the obvious common denominator), it's just stating what's functional and what you will or won't accept.

YES we should all be encouraging and we all owe a huge debt to those who extended us goodwill and mentored us in sometimes very subtle ways, and what we owe them is not to waste time and energy on those who refuse to take responsibility and lift themselves up to do at least the bare minimum required.

The kindest thing we can do for those people is to say "You need to work on this, and I'm going to facilitate that by getting distractions out of your way including me and whatever it is we're doing together that's taking up the time and money you need to put into developing."

It's that easy, and we need that time and money to develop too because there are myriad levels and facets in life where we are not fully functional and mustn't pass ourselves off as pretenders thereby wasting the time and goodwill of others who earned their place at a higher level, so onward and upward.

Can't move ahead with an albatross around your neck, so if you're not also getting something out of it then just move on ahead without them.

 

[Wisebass]

Talented and motivated musicians don' t need to be encouraged.

Just be honest, respect them, help them to improve and have fun. They are worth the effort!!!

Talented but lazy? Do your homework buddy!!! sometimes a friendly kick in the @$$ is all they need

Not so talented but motivated: I 'll encourage them to get lessons (please not in band rehearsals)

Not so talented and lazy? I haven' t met anybody like this in years.

Maybe they know my reaction, maybe they are even too lazy to show up for the audition

I always try to be cool (I am a bassplayer )


Wise(b)ass

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Please don't shoot me but I find it all to easy to be complacent on the bass for beginners (depending on their style). Rock bass, if you're young there is a good chance this is where you're headed and lets face it a lot of the popular music does not feature anything special on bass. For me after getting my Jack Bruce, John Bohnum and Roger Waters licks down I thought I was a bad ass than I stumbled upon a Weather Report record of my dads (Heavy Weather) got the Jaco instructional movie and was very... very humbled!

You and me both...