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Drummer with no groove, what do you do?

#81
RDUB said:
Musical difficulties - we can talk it out.
Won't talk - one of us walks.

Working with a drummer with issues can be a real drag, but I've gigged with some young guys who were open to learning some new things, and eager to pick up whatever tips they could from the... ahem... more experienced guys. This can be a great position to be in, mentoring a younger player. I'm not perfect either, and I've learned a heck of a lot from drummers I've worked with.

If the under performing drummer's attitude and ego suck, and I can't even talk to him, I'll do my darnedest to never have to work with him again. That includes giving my impression of his abilities and attitude to the person who hired us in the first place.
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IMO that is the key... If the person.. whoever it is is willing to listen to advice and put some effort into correcting the problem I am all for trying to work with them.. but if they just refuse to listen or accept any kind of help/criticism that is another story. I guess it is a little different for me because I don't have to pay the bills with my playing (thank goodness or I'd be a hungry mo living in a box.. :roflmao:) and I am rarely in charge of the situation with most of my playing being done in church. We had a drummer who had a terrible sense of time. I got her a metronome ... on the DL of course and it helped.
 
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#82
RDUB said:
Being a musician isn't a 'by' from being a mature human being. I'm a supervisor in my day job. I have to talk to people about their performance. We don't deal with problems by ignoring them, we deal with them by talking them through and coming up with solutions. It's not about berating someone, it's about working together to improve. My people accept this. Why can't most musicians?
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I'm sure it's partly because music is an artistic endeavor where some can see talent as subjective. 10 people can look at a painting and see 10 different things. Who's to say who's not "good enough" as a player as opposed to a "real job" where you might be a good person and well liked but if you can't meet a static level of expectations i.e. we need you to make X number of widgets a day. I'm sure you've had to let go of people you liked and in other aspects were good workers but just weren't getting the job done.

Having said that I've seen people fired from sessions and not get gigs they've auditioned for because they didn't have a skill set TPTB wanted or expected for their project. It's especially tough in variety bands where you have to cover multiple styles. A great blues player might struggle playing Latin and a great R&B player might have a problem getting a feel for country.

But when you get to a certain level there's things that are expected of you as a pro or semi-pro as opposed to a hobbyist player. Playing drums in time and with some feeling and playing appropriately for the song isn't out of line for your expectations. Also it''s on the BL/management to realize that someone just doesn't have "it" and not to make the rest of the band's lives miserable because they are too afraid to make a change or whatever reason they give.
 
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#84
I am actually facing a similar problem - new group, originals, older drummer who is admittedly "rusty" - but he's open to suggestions and he's actually *trying*. So it's different in that this guy knows he's sucking wind. I'm trying to help him - but I am losing patience. Not my group, not my call - but I can see gigging with this guy and it just sounding *awful* because his fills are ill-timed and have zero groove. But it's not my group - In this case, I really am "just the bass player". So what do ya do, right?
 
#85
Plug one of these into your amp:
59809_l.jpg

Turn it up. Keep it playing. Even if he doesn't take suggestions, he'll get the message.
 
#88
I don't see that trying to take control of the groove is going to work in the majority of cases. Going back to the idea that a band is only as good as its drummer (or whatever version of that you like), the instrument marking the time that practically every audience will respond to first is the drums. Bass being the other half of the rhythm section can't hope to compete for control of time-marking simply because it's nowhere near as percussive. This is why a bad drummer can drag down an otherwise good band, despite the best efforts of a good bass player, and the only real fix is sending him back to the shed while you move on with someone else.

Oh, and I've met far too many bandleaders too deep into their own parts (and fantasies) who couldn't be bothered to notice the strengths & weaknesses of the rhythm section. Those BLs aren't worth playing with either.
 
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#89
BassGuyFL said:
I'm sure it's partly because music is an artistic endeavor where some can see talent as subjective.
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I think you're right about the artistic endeavor part, but IME it's because of fragile egos rather than subjectivity. Usually, an artist's identity is much more closely tied to their art than, say, a lab tech is to their work. Some people just can't separate their sense of self from their art, so when you criticize their art, you're attacking them personally. I've found the players most able to receive criticism have some combination of humility, confidence, and something else in their life that means more to them than their art (e.g., family).

I've seen mediocre musicians get upset when talented pros were giving them advice. There was this guy in a vocal workshop where I was playing bass who just didn't get it. The workshop instructor was a renowned jazz vocalist whom the guy taking the class admired, presumably. Instructor gives the guy some feedback after guy sings (and guy wasn't good), and the guy proceeds to argue with him about the validity of his feedback. It's like, "Dude, why are you here?" Well, it became apparent he was there looking for strokes on his egg-shell-thin ego rather than actual useful criticism.
 
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#90
Yup band meeting let him know where your head is at with all members present so he won't be surprised. Explain to him that he needs to get on the ball or you are going to look for a replacement. He may do you a favor and leave at that point or he may not realize that he hasn't been getting the job done the way you need it. Keep it professional no names just address his performance and what he needs to do to keep his position in the band. Good Luck never easy, but it is better to address it sooner than later.
 
#91
lfmn16 said:
The band leader gets to say who is good enough to be included in a project. Each band member gets to decide if everybody in the band is good enough to make it worth playing with them.
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I was being a bit factitious there. It was argued on here before that judging someone's talent is arbitrary because everyone has an different opinion of what's "good."

Also it's on the BL to recognize that someone has a deficiency and make the appropriate call. If you can't see that your bad drummer or drunken guitar player with mental issues is making the rest of the band miserable and hindering your progress then be ready for a lot of turnover. Very few people are irreplaceable. Ask David Lee Roth about that. ;)
 
#92
bslayton said:
tries too hard to show-off and loses timing
over-plays and changes the rhythm of the songs (double kick in Jessie's girls? REALLY?)
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Ugh. I had a very similar experience with the last drummer that was in the band I'm trying to put together. His interpretation of our songs included a fill in every bar, and even double bass during a clean/acoustic intro to one of our songs.

We fired him. Maybe you should fire yours.
 
#93
I am in the same situation right now. I feel like I can't add much flavor on the bass and the music could really call for it. The drummer brings no intensity, groove or dynamic to work with. I just hang on the root notes (which is fine). A while back I made a post complaining about my drummer who doesnt "rock hard enough." I mean c'mon... drummer = rock. Supposed to be the animal of the band. I want a little Bonham, I got stuck with Millhouse. It's a band with friends but every week I want to quit it.
 
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#94
BassGuyFL said:
...It was argued on here before that judging someone's talent is arbitrary because everyone has an different opinion of what's "good."
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To my mind, it isn't so much about judging someone's talent as it is about judging their suitability. Many of the "greats" has fairly loose relationships with time but had other attributes that were more noticeable. I'm thinking the likes of Carl Palmer and Keith Moon mostly, though there are many others.

Not sure Keith Moon would've been such a great covers guy :)

That said, there are minimum time-keeping requirements that all players need to have - and not just drummers.
 
#95
BassGuyFL said:
I was being a bit factitious there. It was argued on here before that judging someone's talent is arbitrary because everyone has an different opinion of what's "good."

Also it's on the BL to recognize that someone has a deficiency and make the appropriate call. If you can't see that your bad drummer or drunken guitar player with mental issues is making the rest of the band miserable and hindering your progress then be ready for a lot of turnover. Very few people are irreplaceable. Ask David Lee Roth about that. ;)
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Good point, Roth replaced Eddie with Steve Vai, Michael with Billy Sheehan and Alex with that other drummer! :D
 
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#97
get a really good drum machine ...! program to taste ... enjoy the extra space on the stage ... you can control the volume ... set the agreed upon tempo , etc , etc ,.... I love great drummers ... but they are rather hard to find ... once you've played with a few good ones , you're spoiled ...!!
 
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#98
bslayton said:
HEEEEELP! Someone just shoot me already!
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No, shoot him instead.
Seriously, until you can get rid of him, (assuming he is right-handed) all you can do is watch his right hand, and when he hits something that he thinks is on the beat, play a note with him, and if you just can't stand it anymore, leave.
 

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