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E#. Wait, what?

#224
brianrost said:
OK, you got me with this one...can you show me a diminished scale example? I wasn't aware this was possible.
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I can try. The diminished scale is an 8-tone scale built on alternating tones and semi-tones or whole and half-steps. So C - D - Eb - F - F# - G#- A - B - C. It has only two modes - starting with tone or semi-tone step and continuing from there. The other modes are actually enharmonic equivalents (in bold above) - so to play Eb diminished scale, just start the C diminished scale on Eb - the repeating pattern of whole/half-steps slots you right in. In the example, the F and F# are termed the augmented unison. Unison because the letter name is the same, augmented because of the sharp. If you write out the D diminished scale (D, E, F, G, Ab, Bb, B, C#, D), you could argue (but I would not recommend it!) that there is a diminished unison at the Bb/B step.

It is an odd coincidence that only this week I have been working on a part for 'At Last' which has a C-dim chord in it and I was looking for a melodic 'escape' to play over it on the fretless, which is why it is still fresh in my mind.
 
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#228
mellowinman said:
The only notable (completed) symphony written explicitly in F# Major is Erich Wolfgang Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp major, Op. 40 of 1950.

Gustav Mahler's unfinished Tenth Symphony is in this key. So is Olivier Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie, as several of its movements including the finale are in that key, although it could be excluded on the grounds that it is very far from traditionally tonal.

In short, few fretted bass players ever muddle about with F# Major.

It's not necessarily more difficult to literally sit down and write it. But transposing it in a way that everyone gets the same impression is difficult....

For example:
Concert Pitch - C Key of F# Maj
C instruments: F#
Bb Instruments: E
G Instruments: C# (Db )
F Instruments: B# (C )
Eb Instruments: A

vs.

Concert Pitch - C Key of Gb Maj
C instruments: Gb
Bb Instruments: Eb
G Instruments: Db
F Instruments: C maj
Eb Instruments: Bbb (A)

In any case just the major keys become a huge pain when transposing, with two very commonly keyed instruments having to move out of flats because their keys don't make any sense, while it's only true of one in Gb.

If your piece moves to the dominant V chord in a transposition you have
Concert Pitch - C Key of F# Maj --> V/I = C# (8 sharps) /F#

Where as in Gb...
Concert Pitch - C Key of Gb Maj -->v/I = C (no sharp/no flat) / Gb

And if you do shifting tonic (something very common in Tonal Harmony)...
V/ii --> D# (what...11 sharps?)/G#
vs.
V/ii --> Eb/Ab

It can go on and on...in general. F# is just a key needed for very specific events...they're rare.

Of course, a lot of rock songs are actually in F#, but that's because they're in "G" on instruments transposed down a half step...
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1. This discussion of whether the key of Gb is preferable to F# for transposing instruments has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument that E# and F sound the same but have different functions. (To the extent it is relevant at all, it actually refutes your argument that there is no difference between the key of Gb and the key of F#.)

2. You might not actually have realized that when you posted, since you didn't actually write this post, but plagiarized it verbatim from another forum: Key of G Flat or F# ? | Sciforums

In any event, I see that after I left last night you went on and on about whether E# and F are the "same note." I think that argument misses the point (and frankly, is a waste of time). The point is that E# and F are enharmonic equivalents. They sound the same, but they are not interchangeable because they serve different functions. I've provided multiple examples in this thread of where the choice between one enharmonic spelling and the other makes a real, practical difference.
 
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#230
David Jayne said:
I have one :D So it's context? Function within a given key?
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Diminished chords are commonly derived from the Locrian mode. Compared to the locrian mode, the diminished scale has a semi-tone leading note (I won't call it the seventh) so in spite of it's name it can have a more 'up' feel with less tension, hence my trying to use it for my 'melodic escape' - so I'm looking for function outside the given key - tension that resolves nicely without resorting to dominant 7th substitution. In the 'At Last' tune, the next chord after the Cdim is Em. The leading note of the Cdim scale is B is the 5th of the Em chord so my thinking is that I can find a cleaner resolution without melodic fumbling. With the C locrian mode, the 7th is Bb which does not lead nicely into the Em chord.
 
#231
In case anyone cares about, or even remembers, the OP, he and I concluded 6 pages ago (see posts #115 and #127) that the guitarist who insisted the note was properly called "E#" did not know the first thing about music theory; to him, "E#" is just what you get when you bend an E.
 
#232
Lobster11 said:
In case anyone cares about, or even remembers, the OP, he and I concluded 6 pages ago (see posts #115 and #127) that the guitarist who insisted the note was properly called "E#" did not know the first thing about music theory; to him, "E#" is just what you get when you bend an E.
Click to expand...

I'm beginning to like the guitarists explanation more than the pedantic sludge of the correct explanation.
 
#233
gln1955 said:
I'm beginning to like the guitarists explanation more than the pedantic sludge of the correct explanation.
Click to expand...
The point that I've been trying to make in this thread (with limited success, apparently) is that the difference between enharmonic equivalents isn't merely pedantic. It makes an actual difference in real world situations that some of us encounter frequently. As I said earlier, I get that a lot of people never encounter those situations in the type of music they play, but for those who do, I would rather see correct information than incorrect information.
 
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#235
worxforme said:
This thread proves the self-entitlement to demand acceptance of one's own idiosyncrasies as equally correct is one of the driving forces on the planet at large.*
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Fixed it.


*Gosh, this looked cool and everything until I re-read it and realised it could sound like an anti-LGBT rights rant. Which it was not, I now feel appropriate to point out.
 
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#236
Febs said:
The point that I've been trying to make in this thread (with limited success, apparently) is that the difference between enharmonic equivalents isn't merely pedantic. It makes an actual difference in real world situations that some of us encounter frequently. As I said earlier, I get that a lot of people never encounter those situations in the type of music they play, but for those who do, I would rather see correct information than incorrect information.
Click to expand...

My guess is that those who "need to know" already do. The other 99% of us can stumble on in ignorance and it won't make a whit of difference. Not that this isn't an intersting thread in it's own way. I work in academia, so "pedantic" is the order of the day.
 

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