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Elon Musk as educator
- Thread starter MoireBass
- Start date
As an educator -- a professor of philosophy, specifically -- I'm a huge proponent of education. However, I'm very skeptical of the idea that a good education results in a more rational or ethical populace. It's been a while, so I'd have trouble with a citation at the moment, but I recall reading something years ago that indicated that education levels don't actually correspond to whether people believe in weird stuff. If anything, education often gives people the tools to rationalize what they want to believe and criticize others for different views.
As an example, I teach an introductory class is philosophical ethics. We spend time at the head of the semester talking about philosophical methods, which in that class are simply various forms of logic -- yes, fallacies, but so much more than that (e.g., how to create deductively sound arguments). Time after time for over two decades, I have seen students learn and be able to apply it all perfectly as long as they are doing so to arguments that are not their own. Then suddenly, once they give their own arguments, it all just goes out the window. It doesn't even change anything if this is pointed out to them by their fellow students in discussions, it just doesn't make a dent most of the time.
Unfortunately, I think it comes down to human nature and psychology, rather than intelligence or education. The brain is a belief-preserving engine (stupid, stupid brain). We all want to believe what we believe, and we'll fight tooth and nail to keep believing it. Ultimately, I can educate students on good logical methods, but they have to make a choice that those things actually matter. I can (and do) try my best to talk about why it matters, but I can't (and shouldn't) force them to make that choice.
On a last note, I can't help but feel bad when people claim that I and my colleagues are indoctrinating the youth. Almost every professor I've ever worked with tries their damndest to help students think for themselves, and yet we're constantly accused of the opposite. It's absolutely devastating to my morale, and makes me wonder sometimes if I'm just a fool for even trying. I hope people will take into account that educators are real human beings with feelings, and not some weird 2D cartoon villains.
Thanks for reading.
I've posted it often and will continue to do so. We are much better at rationalizing than we are at reasoning, and as far as I can tell the chief human motivation, even more than to feel happy, is to feel justified.
The only antidote I can think of would be a worldview that trains people to assume that they are deeply flawed and wrong, not hopeless but needing change. But that sort of thinking is often considered negativity these days.
I will say, on the encouraging side - one class, for one semester, rarely changes anything, as you've seen. I am more optimistic, however, about the collective effect of an educational experience over time. Not across the board; lots of people get degrees and still never seem to learn critical thinking. An example: I once got into an internet debate over a political issue that had an economic dimension. My opponent characterized his position "as just economics 101." I suggested that maybe people should consider economics 303. His reply: I have an MBA, don't lecture me, I know all about economics. I said, that's great, I don't, so you must have a better grasp of the evidence and the scholarship on it that supports your position. Please tell me what I should be reading so I can learn more about this and understand why your position is the right one. His reply: Crickets.
Nevertheless, I have had students who completely failed to grasp a process I use in teaching the first course they took from me, leaving me very discouraged. Then when they took a second or third course, there it was, and I heard from colleagues who had the same student in their office hours struggling with a paper for them, suddenly realize that what they needed to do was apply my process. I've run into students I had fifteen years ago who went into totally different fields say that they used a research method I had taught them for their new field, to great advantage. "Lifelong learning" is a cliche but I think that the advantages of education simply take time to sink in - a longer time frame than is reflected in the one-semester course format that is standard now.
No, but are there any "good" anybodies? I think it was Jonathan Haidt who developed a list of five prevailing fallacies or errors endemic in modern culture. One of them is that the world consists of good guys and bad guys, and that what's most important is deciding who to put in which box.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
There are no big companies (orbig commercial ideas) developed and built by only one person. Did Musk have help? Yes. Did he pay that help? Yes. If the idea was his, he would have needed help in the construction process.
Henry Ford had the initial inspiration for the Model T, and did he build the prototype (with help)? Yes. Did he hire many engineers and other professionals to help? Yes.
Henry Ford had the initial inspiration for the Model T, and did he build the prototype (with help)? Yes. Did he hire many engineers and other professionals to help? Yes.
Haven't people been trained in that ideology for millennia?
You can give them the tools, it's on them to make the best use of them.As an educator -- a professor of philosophy, specifically -- I'm a huge proponent of education. However, I'm very skeptical of the idea that a good education results in a more rational or ethical populace. It's been a while, so I'd have trouble with a citation at the moment, but I recall reading something years ago that indicated that education levels don't actually correspond to whether people believe in weird stuff. If anything, education often gives people the tools to rationalize what they want to believe and criticize others for different views.
As an example, I teach an introductory class is philosophical ethics. We spend time at the head of the semester talking about philosophical methods, which in that class are simply various forms of logic -- yes, fallacies, but so much more than that (e.g., how to create deductively sound arguments). Time after time for over two decades, I have seen students learn and be able to apply it all perfectly as long as they are doing so to arguments that are not their own. Then suddenly, once they give their own arguments, it all just goes out the window. It doesn't even change anything if this is pointed out to them by their fellow students in discussions, it just doesn't make a dent most of the time.
Unfortunately, I think it comes down to human nature and psychology, rather than intelligence or education. The brain is a belief-preserving engine (stupid, stupid brain). We all want to believe what we believe, and we'll fight tooth and nail to keep believing it. Ultimately, I can educate students on good logical methods, but they have to make a choice that those things actually matter. I can (and do) try my best to talk about why it matters, but I can't (and shouldn't) force them to make that choice.
On a last note, I can't help but feel bad when people claim that I and my colleagues are indoctrinating the youth. Almost every professor I've ever worked with tries their damndest to help students think for themselves, and yet we're constantly accused of the opposite. It's absolutely devastating to my morale, and makes me wonder sometimes if I'm just a fool for even trying. I hope people will take into account that educators are real human beings with feelings, and not some weird 2D cartoon villains.
Thanks for reading.
I think society will always debate the role of "great" people, or even of "great" ideas. One issue is simply that we structure our organizations with one person in an executive role -- possibly by necessity. The "executive" may be a needed work function in a complex enterprise.
But still, attaching a single Great Person to a business or idea may be largely a social custom. Taking one step back, even trying to detach ourselves from the personal aspect by identifying ideas instead of people, may still amount to a social custom.
The social custom is revealed in how we describe historical events. "Ford built the Model T." I have no problem with it, since I understand what it represents. Ford didn't design it, and there was little novel about the design. If there was one major inventive step, it was the assembly line, and Ford didn't invent that either.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
He didn't invent, but he developed. He created a company that createdc many thousands of well paying jobs, improved labor for people (not just his own workers), helped the country in the world wars, etc.
I'm no Muska fanboi, but he may do something similar. Maybe not.
Improving labor standards is something Musk is absolutely not known for, quite the opposite.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Neither do most people here. How many buy from Amazon, buy cheaper products built in countries with horrible reputations fort4eating their workers, buy on line rather than brick and mortar, etc.?
Tesla has produced hundreds of thousands of under-engineered (really), poorly constructed, overly expensive cars. It's no boon to the worlds economy to have them running around crashing into things and exploding. It's the work of a con man.
Not arguing that point.
I try my damndest to buy at brick and mortar locations in and around my community. I also strive to buy domestically manufactured products.
Many on this site poo-poo that way of thinking, but I believe in supporting our jobs and our domestic labor force.
I didn't read the whole thread yet.
Personally, I'd wait for more details before casting judgement on anyone's desire to invest in education.
Fact is, the U.S. has fallen behind. And, an awful lot of students put themselves in debt for, essentially, meaningless degrees. [I have a large family, and all my kids are now young adults. I speak - from experience.]
If anyone does anything that elevates higher education in the U.S., it should be applauded.
I'm going to wait for more information.
If I had his resources, I'd be putting some of them in education, too.
Judge the specific act, when the details are there - not the social media person.
Personally, I'd wait for more details before casting judgement on anyone's desire to invest in education.
Fact is, the U.S. has fallen behind. And, an awful lot of students put themselves in debt for, essentially, meaningless degrees. [I have a large family, and all my kids are now young adults. I speak - from experience.
]If anyone does anything that elevates higher education in the U.S., it should be applauded.
I'm going to wait for more information.
If I had his resources, I'd be putting some of them in education, too.
Judge the specific act, when the details are there - not the social media person.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
I've caught some flack here in the past for my views on the subject.
