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Entry level bass is total BS?

#161
malthumb said:
I guess I see things differently than most. I do not equate the terms “entry level” and “beginner”. An entry level bass is not necessarily a beginner bass. It is the entry level to the brand, not the instrument.

An entry level Alembic (Epic or Orion) is not a beginner bass. It is simply the lowest priced instrument in their portfolio. An SX short scale might be a better example of a beginner bass. Likewise, a Ken Smith Burner or a Sadowsky Metro might be entry level for those brands, but are definitely not beginner basses.

A Porsche Cayman is an entry level Porsche. Definitely not a car for a new driver to learn on. As long as we take the position of entry level = beginner, the idea of cheap, low quality will trail along to mis-categorize the perception of “entry level” instruments.
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I mostly understand it being a bad idea to learn to drive in a Porsche. The acceleration and lack of safety features is probably not the best. But for different reasons an ancient junker is probably not the best beginner car either. Nor is the cheapest car available. The best beginner car would be the safest and easiest to drive car. A Subaru Outback or maybe a Rolls Royce Phantom would be a good beginner car by my measure.

I think the idea of a beginner bass is a made up one to sell cheap instruments. Some of these basses are good quality, and good for beginner and expert alike. Others are tough to play for anyone. I'm not sure what features an Alembic has that make it a bad beginner instrument.

Maybe it is best to think what makes a bad beginner instrument. I would start the list with:
1) More than 6 strings
2) Poor craftsmanship (unfinished frets, unleveled frets, warped neck)
3) Complicated electronic circuits (eg Bc Rich Moser Circuits)

I do not know why price would come into play with a performer's level of skill. It seems strange to imply a beginner couldn't play or appreciate a Fodera, Wal, Sadowsky, etc. Price comes down to your pocket book only. If you make $40,000 a year and have 3 kids, your bass will look different than if you make $40,000 a month and have no kids. Skill has nothing to do with it.
 
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#163
James Collins said:
I mostly understand it being a bad idea to learn to drive in a Porsche. The acceleration and lack of safety features is probably not the best. But for different reasons an ancient junker is probably not the best beginner car either. Nor is the cheapest car available. The best beginner car would be the safest and easiest to drive car. A Subaru Outback or maybe a Rolls Royce Phantom would be a good beginner car by my measure.

I think the idea of a beginner bass is a made up one to sell cheap instruments. Some of these basses are good quality, and good for beginner and expert alike. Others are tough to play for anyone. I'm not sure what features an Alembic has that make it a bad beginner instrument.

Maybe it is best to think what makes a bad beginner instrument. I would start the list with:
1) More than 6 strings
2) Poor craftsmanship (unfinished frets, unleveled frets, warped neck)
3) Complicated electronic circuits (eg Bc Rich Moser Circuits)

I do not know why price would come into play with a performer's level of skill. It seems strange to imply a beginner couldn't play or appreciate a Fodera, Wal, Sadowsky, etc. Price comes down to your pocket book only. If you make $40,000 a year and have 3 kids, your bass will look different than if you make $40,000 a month and have no kids. Skill has nothing to do with it.
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I learned to drive on the family Rolls Phantom VI. It's long but actually, a very easy car to drive. You literally can't do wrong with it. No one dares to mess with that gigantic car so you don't get harassed, no one blares their horn if you're late off the stop light, every girl wants a ride, drive up to a hotel and they treat you with respect even if you wear Teva sandals. LOL

As to a bass, I really think a good preamp and pickups, along with a good setup helps. Good electronics takes so much hassle out for the beginner. You waste little to no time getting a good tone out of the box.

I personally think a Dingwall, Mayones, Xotic, Fodera, Sadowsky, Alembic, Fender custom shop, Fbass, Ken Smith are all great beginner basses. It makes life so much easier for the beginner. No hassle. Just plug and play. Besides you can't blame the instrument if you don't get better.
 
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#165
James Collins said:
I mostly understand it being a bad idea to learn to drive in a Porsche. The acceleration and lack of safety features is probably not the best. But for different reasons an ancient junker is probably not the best beginner car either. Nor is the cheapest car available. The best beginner car would be the safest and easiest to drive car. A Subaru Outback or maybe a Rolls Royce Phantom would be a good beginner car by my measure.

I think the idea of a beginner bass is a made up one to sell cheap instruments. Some of these basses are good quality, and good for beginner and expert alike. Others are tough to play for anyone. I'm not sure what features an Alembic has that make it a bad beginner instrument.

Maybe it is best to think what makes a bad beginner instrument. I would start the list with:
1) More than 6 strings
2) Poor craftsmanship (unfinished frets, unleveled frets, warped neck)
3) Complicated electronic circuits (eg Bc Rich Moser Circuits)

I do not know why price would come into play with a performer's level of skill. It seems strange to imply a beginner couldn't play or appreciate a Fodera, Wal, Sadowsky, etc. Price comes down to your pocket book only. If you make $40,000 a year and have 3 kids, your bass will look different than if you make $40,000 a month and have no kids. Skill has nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...

I chose a car analogy because I worked for a car company for 38 years. :smug: The issue with inexpensive car versus expensive car is not the inadequacy of the car, but the inadequacy of the driver and the much greater likelihood of damage to expensive property. I used the Porsche analogy because putting too much power in the hands of a beginner is dangerous on a number of levels. I have a 455 hp Camaro and a 153 hp Chevrolet Cruze. Guess which one I let my kids borrow. They're not inexperienced drivers, but the opportunity to do something stupid is dramatically higher in the Camaro, and the Cruze runs errands just fine.

But more importantly, the impact of something done wrong is a lot more serious. The likelihood of banged headstocks, chipped bodies and other damage is greater with a beginning player. It's not that a beginner CAN'T use an entry level Alembic or Ritter or Sadowsky or whatever. It's just that there is so much available at great pricing in the Beginner Bass realm that it is not necessary. When my youngest kid was 12, he played "Breezin'" on my Roscoe LG-3005 with unlined ebony fingerboard and black strings at a school event. Hardly a beginner bass. He pulled it off. Coulda done it on his Mexi FrankenP, and his dad would have been a lot less nervous about what may or may not have happened to it backstage before and after his performance. He's also played my Series I at a number of gigs. Common thread.....I'm there when he does it. To make certain nothing goes wrong. Other gigs when I'm not around he uses his FrankenP or Squier VM fretless.
 
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#166
malthumb said:
I chose a car analogy because I worked for a car company for 38 years. :smug: The issue with inexpensive car versus expensive car is not the inadequacy of the car, but the inadequacy of the driver and the much greater likelihood of damage to expensive property. I used the Porsche analogy because putting too much power in the hands of a beginner is dangerous on a number of levels. I have a 455 hp Camaro and a 153 hp Chevrolet Cruze. Guess which one I let my kids borrow. They're not inexperienced drivers, but the opportunity to do something stupid is dramatically higher in the Camaro, and the Cruze runs errands just fine.

But more importantly, the impact of something done wrong is a lot more serious. The likelihood of banged headstocks, chipped bodies and other damage is greater with a beginning player. It's not that a beginner CAN'T use an entry level Alembic or Ritter or Sadowsky or whatever. It's just that there is so much available at great pricing in the Beginner Bass realm that it is not necessary. When my youngest kid was 12, he played "Breezin'" on my Roscoe LG-3005 with unlined ebony fingerboard and black strings at a school event. Hardly a beginner bass. He pulled it off. Coulda done it on his Mexi FrankenP, and his dad would have been a lot less nervous about what may or may not have happened to it backstage before and after his performance. He's also played my Series I at a number of gigs. Common thread.....I'm there when he does it. To make certain nothing goes wrong. Other gigs when I'm not around he uses his FrankenP or Squier VM fretless.
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Even in your story, you equate beginner with cheap. I understand that I would rather play a Squier in the rain than a Fodera Monarch. But it has nothing to do with it being a beginner bass. It is just because it is cheap and damaging it would matter less. I think some amount of incidental damage will happen no matter what, and some seasoned players are a lot more careless than some beginners.

My main point is that no bass is suitable only for beginners. Nor is there anything inherently wrong with some cheap instruments. What you are willing to spend on a bass is entirely up to how much money you have.

Your point with the car emphasizes this. A Camaro is not a beginner car because you don't want it to get scratched by your kid. Your Cruze is a beginner car because you are okay with it getting scratched. It is all relative. If I had $1 Billion and made $150 million a year, a Rolls Royce is what my kids would drive because it is a safe and luxurious car. However, even though I owned an Agera, I would only drive it on my race track.

Also, damaging a guitar or bass does not necessarily make it sound worse or ruin it. See Trigger:
Trigger (guitar) - Wikipedia
1024px-Trigger_Willie_Nelson.jpg
 
#167
@James Collins , change "cheap" to "inexpensive" and we pretty much have convergence. Beginner instruments don't have to be "cheap" as in poorly made, little attention to detail. I have had SX and Squier instruments that have been well made and are good sounding instruments. ("my SX sounds better than my vintage Fender" crowd please keep your powder dry on this one).

To me the gotta have qualities of a beginner bass are
  • It needs to be repairable at low cost if damaged
  • It needs to be replaceable at low cost if damaged beyond repair or lost
  • It needs to be salable at minimal loss should the beginner decide it ain't their thing
Beyond those elements, it should be the best sounding, best playing, best looking instrument for the amount I would be willing to pay for a beginner instrument.

Again, my larger point is that entry level and beginner are not the same thing. Entry level is lowest price point for a brand. Beginner is a suitable instrument for a new player. It's possible to find an instrument that is both, but not all entry level instruments are beginner instruments, just like all rectangles aren't squares.
 
#168
malthumb said:
@James Collins Again, my larger point is that entry level and beginner are not the same thing. Entry level is lowest price point for a brand. Beginner is a suitable instrument for a new player. It's possible to find an instrument that is both, but not all entry level instruments are beginner instruments, just like all rectangles aren't squares.
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Yes, I mean cheap to equal low cost. Not for cheap to equal low quality.

I don't know what inexpensive means. To me it would be less than $1,000. For someone else it might mean less than $200. For someone else it might mean less than $3,000. I was just agreeing with the OP that the idea of a bass labeled a beginner bass is BS (Basically Specious)--it makes sense on the surface only. Price should not come into the designation because it is so relative.

People often come onto TalkBass and ask what the best beginner bass is. They should say, "I have X dollars. I want to start playing bass. I have never played bass, but I have experience with some other instrument. What are some examples of decent rigs I could play for these types of situations: ...?" But it is easier to just say, "What is the best beginner bass?"

It would also be nice if there was a list of bass guitars/amps with reviews from people who played the instruments that you could sort by price and rating. Until that exists, I think the "beginner bass" will be around.
 
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#177
James Collins said:
Your price is much different than mine...
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Without a doubt and everybody does but I'm coming to understand that the perception of "entry level" has many different view points other than what I originally saw. With this topic in my opinion we have all learned a lot about what it means to be a bassist and a lot about each other! I am really blessed to have found this forum and continue to learn about our art and way of life! Thank you for being a part of this and hope you and everyone else is learning too!
 

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