Epifani 902UL....Finally

[KJung]

i wouldnt go that far...

a few gents i've spoken to said they still dig the tones of the WW. course, they also thought that two channels and a semi parametric mids section are hard to resist.

Remember... the WW has.... two channels and semi parametric mids ... on both channels!

 

[MacGroove]

Joker, that's the 502 fitted as the 902 I was able to try out, or I shoud say, one just like it.
Ken, even though this is a switchable power supply, it defies all others before it with the (as I like to put it) 'backbone'. This will change what people think about switchable power supplies, as least IMO.
It's also light because it has no transformer.

 

[jokerjkny]

Remember... the WW has.... two channels and semi parametric mids ... on both channels!

d'oh!

 

[jokerjkny]

Joker, that's the 502 fitted as the 902 I was able to try out, or I shoud say, one just like it.
Ken, even though this is a switchable power supply, it defies all others before it with the (as I like to put it) 'backbone'. This will change what people think about switchable power supplies, as least IMO.
It's also light because it has no transformer.

hmm..

maybe i should have my bud bring by his AI Focus...

 

[KJung]

d'oh!

 

[KJung]

Joker, that's the 502 fitted as the 902 I was able to try out, or I shoud say, one just like it.
Ken, even though this is a switchable power supply, it defies all others before it with the (as I like to put it) 'backbone'. This will change what people think about switchable power supplies, as least IMO.
It's also light because it has no transformer.

I'll tell you what.... I have a love hate relationship with my Woods (and also with the Focus I sold). Plenty of volume, but just a total lack of what you call 'backbone' (no 'chest thumping' going on) that I attribute to the switching power supplies. But.... the larger Berg IP 212 and 310's (which use a no transformer/switching power supply amp) have one of the most incredible low end punchy sounds that I've ever heard. If Nick is using a similar type product... as the Joker says... whoa nelly

 

[jive1]

and jive, did you get an ETA on ship date? are they shipping now? nick was a little cagey as usual when it came to delivery dates.

Possibly as early as late June.

 

[emjazz]

I'll tell you what.... I have a love hate relationship with my Woods (and also with the Focus I sold). Plenty of volume, but just a total lack of what you call 'backbone' (no 'chest thumping' going on) that I attribute to the switching power supplies. But.... the larger Berg IP 212 and 310's (which use a no transformer/switching power supply amp) have one of the most incredible low end punchy sounds that I've ever heard. If Nick is using a similar type product... as the Joker says... whoa nelly

Yeah, but does it have DSP?

 

[KJung]

Yeah, but does it have DSP?

Hey Andy! I'm sure that DSP has something to do with it... but from my painful experience, I don't think that kind of low end exists in the Walter and AI power sections.. no matter how sophisticated the EQ (for all you Walter and AI fans... I'm not saying they sound bad... but they don't sound big in the low end punch area IMO). I think, like everything else, there seems to be some big improvement recently in very small switching power supply amps being able to handle those massive low end transients that IMO are a problem with the 'previous generation' switching power supply amps.

Again, to be fair... neither the Walter nor AI amps are in any way marketed to be 'chest thumping rock/funk amps'... they do what they do very well. However, it seems for the first time (again, as always IMO) that we are seeing some very lightweight high power heads starting to give you the 'led sled' thump that previously you could only get at 50 pounds of linear transformer, etc.

 

[emjazz]

Hey Andy! I'm sure that DSP has something to do with it... but from my painful experience, I don't think that kind of low end exists in the Walter and AI power sections.. no matter how sophisticated the EQ (for all you Walter and AI fans... I'm not saying they sound bad... but they don't sound big in the low end punch area IMO). I think, like everything else, there seems to be some big improvement recently in very small switching power supply amps being able to handle those massive low end transients that IMO are a problem with the 'previous generation' switching power supply amps.

Again, to be fair... neither the Walter nor AI amps are in any way marketed to be 'chest thumping rock/funk amps'... they do what they do very well. However, it seems for the first time (again, as always IMO) that we are seeing some very lightweight high power heads starting to give you the 'led sled' thump that previously you could only get at 50 pounds of linear transformer, etc.

What I'm alluding at is that the low end that you heard in the IP's has to do with the DSP that allows Jim to eq the cabs properly, despite the typical limitations of the digital switching supplies.

 

[KJung]

What I'm alluding at is that the low end that you heard in the IP's has to do with the DSP that allows Jim to eq the cabs properly, despite the typical limitations of the digital switching supplies.

+1... however... Tom and I have discussed this in depth.... until I can hear the Berg 310 and 212 cabs with another amp, or the 'Berg Amp' without the DSP, etc., none of us have any way to know what's really going on, and what the specific strengths and weaknesses of the IP system are. Too many 'new variables'... new 'digital amp', new cabinet design, new ISP.... of course, they all work great together to sound great (although, I still dislike the form factor, but that's another story), but I have no way of knowing the impact of the DSP until I hear the same amp and cab with just a good preamp. My gut feel is you could get very, very, very close without the DSP (the comparsion of the Berg112 with a number of good amps and the Berg IP112 strongly reinforces my opinion)... of course, I could be wrong

 

[emjazz]

+1... however... Tom and I have discussed this in depth.... until I can hear the Berg 310 and 212 cabs with another amp, or the 'Berg Amp' without the DSP, etc., none of us have any way to know what's really going on, and what the specific strengths and weaknesses of the IP system are. Too many 'new variables'... new 'digital amp', new cabinet design, new ISP.... of course, they all work great together to sound great (although, I still dislike the form factor, but that's another story), but I have no way of knowing the impact of the DSP until I hear the same amp and cab with just a good preamp. My gut feel is you could get very, very, very close without the DSP (the comparsion of the Berg112 with a number of good amps and the Berg IP112 strongly reinforces my opinion)... of course, I could be wrong

I've heard different variations of the DSP eq and I can say, without a doubt....that you're wrong.

 

[KJung]

I've heard different variations of the DSP eq and I can say, without a doubt....that you're wrong.

Ha! I still would like to be able to do a good A/B with and without the DSP, and compare the impact of the DSP to a good standard amp and EQ. Again, I really think the larger IP's sound great, just not sure where the true magic is.. since Jim claims the 'digital' amp is so much superior than prior versions independent of the ISP.

No big deal either way. I again am very impressed with the sound of those products but relatively unimpressed with the physical design of the current versions. Since I have not heard the 310 (which is my favorite) with a good quality head of equal wattage, I'm just not sure what is causing the great sound... or... to get this thread back on track (sorry).... how the new Epi902 would sound through a Berg310 or 212.

 

[vision]

Too many 'new variables'... new 'digital amp', new cabinet design, new ISP

+1...I agree that its impossible to say that all of the magic is in the DSP when we haven't heard that new power amp with the cab design without the DSP front end. It could be an equal combination of everything, or maybe one thing contributes more than another. I do think its safe to say that the power amp used in the IP cabs is more advanced than previous switching power amps...

 

[jive1]

+1...I agree that its impossible to say that all of the magic is in the DSP when we haven't heard that new power amp with the cab design without the DSP front end. It could be an equal combination of everything, or maybe one thing contributes more than another. I do think its safe to say that the power amp used in the IP cabs is more advanced than previous switching power amps...

I just got off the phone with Jim, and I'll tell you what I told him. I don't care if it's a little monkey on a excercise bike inside makin the tone, it sounds good! It's hard to tell with the variables, but together they sound excellent.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Epifani thread.

 

[jokerjkny]

I just got off the phone with Jim, and I'll tell you what I told him. I don't care if it's a little monkey on a excercise bike inside makin the tone, it sounds good! It's hard to tell with the variables, but together they sound excellent.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Epifani thread.

+1

What's the hum & hiss generally like on these types of amps when set to a decent volume but you're not playing through 'em?

Same question for anyone who has tried these Epifani heads. Are they actually silent if the mute is engaged?

Thanks.

from what i remember my UL502 (in gruuv's possession), and my old Quest II preamp (was in tomb's, now vision's possession), they werent any quieter or hissier than other amps (750, iAMP, TFB, Eden) i've own/ed.

with the prototype 902, it was really hard to tell at the shop, cause of the randomness of an industrial park. but we had it pegged good, and nothing i would have noticed unlike the very very very very very first prototype preamp i tried waaaay waaaay back when the 502 was a mere glint in nick's eye. that guy was hissier than subway's AC compressor on a hot summer's day.

and FYI, when muted, its muted. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING comes out of your cabs. but, if i remember correctly, even with the mute switch activated, the DI out is live and still goes out to the house. its been a while, but i remember one gig, when i was trying to tune "silently", i was still sending out a signal the PA. i'll check back on that one.

 

[KJung]

What's the hum & hiss generally like on these types of amps when set to a decent volume but you're not playing through 'em?

Same question for anyone who has tried these Epifani heads. Are they actually silent if the mute is engaged?

Thanks.

Regarding the WW and AI, which are the only two 'fully digital' (i.e., class D and switching power supply) heads that I'm familiar with, they are totally quiet... no hum or hiss at all IME.

 

[Akami]

Regarding the WW and AI, which are the only two 'fully digital' (i.e., class D and switching power supply) heads that I'm familiar with, they are totally quiet... no hum or hiss at all IME.

Yeah the Focus has no sound at all, until you move your fingers on the strings!
I tried it out for noise in my apartment in the middle of the night when I first got it; everyone probably thought we had an earthquake in my housing unit when I thumped the strings just to get and idea of output.

 

[tombowlus]

+1... however... Tom and I have discussed this in depth.... until I can hear the Berg 310 and 212 cabs with another amp, or the 'Berg Amp' without the DSP, etc., none of us have any way to know what's really going on, and what the specific strengths and weaknesses of the IP system are. Too many 'new variables'... new 'digital amp', new cabinet design, new ISP.... of course, they all work great together to sound great (although, I still dislike the form factor, but that's another story), but I have no way of knowing the impact of the DSP until I hear the same amp and cab with just a good preamp. My gut feel is you could get very, very, very close without the DSP (the comparsion of the Berg112 with a number of good amps and the Berg IP112 strongly reinforces my opinion)... of course, I could be wrong

Ken:

It's a shame that we didn't have a chance to do this experiment, but I initially had both my IP310 and IP212 setup with one channel being "dry" - no DSP. By comparing the un-processed program with the "normal" program, you really do hear a difference - not only more "chest-thumping backbone" but as more tonal balance, more dynamics and "life", and just a more musical presentation.

Now, in defense of what Ken has been saying, I also totally agree with him in that DSP aside, the SMPS in the IP cabs certainly appears to be a cut above that employed by Walter or AI, and it definitely has an inherent low frequency strength and force that seems somewhat lacking in the others.

Tom.

 

[jokerjkny]

honestly,

if it sounds good, why question it?

i plugged my MTD into an IP310 @ rudy's music, and thought a sack of gold was thrown into my chest.