Epifani is gaining weight...

[SMASH]

+1 I'm surprised how much easier an AE410 is to move about compared to a UL410. I don't really notice a weight difference (they're both light) but being a bit thinner makes a real diffference getting thru doorways. Especially if you've got a gut.

Yeah, and your knuckles will be much safer too !

I can only add that people give some thought to how all those guys with back problems actually got their back problems.

 

[KJung]

Yeah, and your knuckles will be much safer too !

I can only add that people give some thought to how all those guys with back problems actually got their back problems.

Hey SMASH!!! Good to see you back on the site!

I actually never did get the 'knuckle banging' thing as it relates to cabinet depth. As one who has been schlepping 410's for over a decade now, I have never experienced any correlation between cabinet depth and ease of getting through doors. Almost all 410's are about the same width, and the less than 2" difference in depth between the AE410 and 410UL has zero impact to me regarding doors, etc. (since you would go through a door 'sideways', which keeps your hands safe anyway) The primary advantage to me of a thinner profile like the AE410 and Schroeder 410L is that they will fit in some spaces that full depth 410's will not (smaller back seats and even some smaller trunks).

However, assuming you have an appropriate vehicle if you use one of these larger type cabs, they are all about the same regarding the impact of form factor on moving them about. Weight is a different story though, as has been mentioned above. You can really feel the difference between the 'original' 56 or so pound 410UL and the 64 or so pound AE410. However, both these cabs are 'doable' if you are concerned with weight and also want a cab capable of doing the largest, loudest gigs.

Knuckles.... haven't banged one in over a decade of 410 schlepping

 

[tombowlus]

Hey SMASH!!! Good to see you back on the site!

I actually never did get the 'knuckle banging' thing as it relates to cabinet depth. As one who has been schlepping 410's for over a decade now, I have never experienced any correlation between cabinet depth and ease of getting through doors. Almost all 410's are about the same width, and the less than 2" difference in depth between the AE410 and 410UL has zero impact to me regarding doors, etc. (since you would go through a door 'sideways', which keeps your hands safe anyway) The primary advantage to me of a thinner profile like the AE410 and Schroeder 410L is that they will fit in some spaces that full depth 410's will not (smaller back seats and even some smaller trunks).

However, assuming you have an appropriate vehicle if you use one of these larger type cabs, they are all about the same regarding the impact of form factor on moving them about. Weight is a different story though, as has been mentioned above. You can really feel the difference between the 'original' 56 or so pound 410UL and the 64 or so pound AE410. However, both these cabs are 'doable' if you are concerned with weight and also want a cab capable of doing the largest, loudest gigs.

Knuckles.... haven't banged one in over a decade of 410 schlepping

Maybe I have overly large knuckles, but for me, depth is very important, as with many doorways, I have to twist the cab slightly as I go through (put one edge through, then pivot and get the other edge through), and depth (plus width, of course) definitely plays a role.

I have banged up my knuckles many, many times over the years while schlepping 4x10's. Though now that I think about it, I don't think I have banged my knuckles yet while transporting Berg/Sadowsky 4x10's. Yes, it's a small size difference, but at least in my situation, it helps. I also enjoy the fact that due to size/handle placement/whatever, I find Jim's 4x10's to be a good carry (and I have good strength/comfort when holding/carrying them).

All IME/IMHO, of course, and obviously, YMMV.

Tom.

 

[KJung]

Maybe I have overly large knuckles, but for me, depth is very important, as with many doorways, I have to twist the cab slightly as I go through (put one edge through, then pivot and get the other edge through), and depth (plus width, of course) definitely plays a role.

I have banged up my knuckles many, many times over the years while schlepping 4x10's. Though now that I think about it, I don't think I have banged my knuckles yet while transporting Berg/Sadowsky 4x10's. Yes, it's a small size difference, but at least in my situation, it helps. I also enjoy the fact that due to size/handle placement/whatever, I find Jim's 4x10's to be a good carry (and I have good strength/comfort when holding/carrying them).

All IME/IMHO, of course, and obviously, YMMV.

Tom.

You've mentioned this many times. I just don't experience it at all... my hands don't get within a foot of the door jam when carrying a large cab out of the door by myself. I guess if you first attempt to carry it through 'width wise' you could run into trouble with any large cab. Not sure why you would do that? Here's a tip... turn it sideways... zero issue!

I can't quite figure out how you would bang a knuckle while doing this, but I guess if you have, you have. It's a zero issue for me, in the 1000 or more times I've carried 410's of various sizes up stairs and out of doors over the last decade.

Edit: I do agree that when doing a pure 'dead lift', the thinner depth of the AE410 is nice, and helps limit the impact of the additional 10 pounds or so between my 410UL and AE410 (as measured on the bathroom scale). If the new Epi's do in fact add that 10 pounds or so to the weight, I do feel the AE410 would have the 'schlep' advantage due to its smaller size.... so +1 there.

 

[tombowlus]

You've mentioned this many times. I just don't experience it at all... my hands don't get within a foot of the door jam when carrying a large cab out of the door by myself. I guess if you first attempt to carry it through 'width wise' you could run into trouble with any large cab. Not sure why you would do that? Here's a tip... turn it sideways... zero issue!

I can't quite figure out how you would bang a knuckle while doing this, but I guess if you have, you have. It's a zero issue for me, in the 1000 or more times I've carried 410's of various sizes up stairs and out of doors over the last decade.

Edit: I do agree that when doing a pure 'dead lift', the thinner depth of the AE410 is nice, and helps limit the impact of the additional 10 pounds or so between my 410UL and AE410 (as measured on the bathroom scale). If the new Epi's do in fact add that 10 pounds or so to the weight, I do feel the AE410 would have the 'schlep' advantage due to its smaller size.... so +1 there.

You carry your 4x10's lengthwise? While holding it? I do that when I roll it, but my arms aren't long enough to grab both handles if I carry a 4x10 lengthwise.

 

[KJung]

You carry your 4x10's lengthwise? While holding it? I do that when I roll it, but my arms aren't long enough to grab both handles if I carry a 4x10 lengthwise.

Nope... just pivot prior to reaching the door frame... again, zero issue. On the rare occasion where the door frame is very small (older houses, etc.), I set the cab on its wheels and position it sideways, walk out of the door and down a step or two if there are steps, grab one handle and pull it most of the way through, grab the other handle and pivot back around when the trailing part of the cab is again clear of the door frame... that works beautifully also (with both 16" and 18" depth cabs). Again, zero issue for me, and not at all a 'purchase driver' when choosing a large cab.

 

[tombowlus]

Nope... just pivot prior to reaching the door frame... again, zero issue.

It must be my damn gorilla knuckles, because when I do that pivot move with a larger cab, I have had plenty of times when I've hit my knuckles on the door frame.

 

[tallboybass]

You've mentioned this many times. I just don't experience it at all... my hands don't get within a foot of the door jam when carrying a large cab out of the door by myself. I guess if you first attempt to carry it through 'width wise' you could run into trouble with any large cab. Not sure why you would do that? Here's a tip... turn it sideways... zero issue!

I can't quite figure out how you would bang a knuckle while doing this, but I guess if you have, you have. It's a zero issue for me, in the 1000 or more times I've carried 410's of various sizes up stairs and out of doors over the last decade.

Edit: I do agree that when doing a pure 'dead lift', the thinner depth of the AE410 is nice, and helps limit the impact of the additional 10 pounds or so between my 410UL and AE410 (as measured on the bathroom scale). If the new Epi's do in fact add that 10 pounds or so to the weight, I do feel the AE410 would have the 'schlep' advantage due to its smaller size.... so +1 there.

+1....the handles are on the side, how can depth affect knuckles? That's purely a width issue IMO.

 

[el_Kabong]

Maybe I have overly large knuckles, but for me, depth is very important, as with many doorways, I have to twist the cab slightly as I go through (put one edge through, then pivot and get the other edge through), and depth (plus width, of course) definitely plays a role.

+1 I always turn sideways when carrying a cab thru a doorway so that I can't hit my hands, 65lbs of cab can squash your hand quite nicely. I've had some nasty hand injuries over the years (nothing to do with music) so I'm paranoid about injuring my hands. The reduction in depth with the AE410 makes doorways much easier. It surprised me.

 

[KJung]

+1....the handles are on the side, how can depth affect knuckles? That's purely a width issue IMO.

I don't get it either, but who knows! It's again a zero issue for me, and I notice no difference between the AE410 and 410UL going through doors sideways, since they are the same width I again pretty much only use 410's, and have never noticed an issue with any 410 myself. However, I've never tried to muscle one through a door with the cab positioned with the width lined up with the door... maybe we are talking about an IQ issue versus a cabinet dimension issue

 

[jokerjkny]

if epifani's ultralite line is affected by these E.U. environmental standards, wouldnt the other lightweight manufacturers who sell in the E.U. also have to follow suit?

 

[Bass Boy]

if epifani's ultralite line is affected by these E.U. standards, wouldnt the other lightweight manufacturers who sell in the E.U. also have to follow suit?

Unless they already are...

 

[Vic]

On the whole knuckle-banging thing, I think it's just a matter of any time you make a cab bigger, it's harder to get through doorways. Therefore, maybe as you're turning or repositioning or whatever, knuckles are at risk. It's a bigger or smaller problem for different people for whatever reason, but it makes perfect sense that logistics are worse with a bigger cab. That's just intuitive.

 

[Eublet]

Another reason I don't like 410's. My cab fits through doors easily, as long as it's upright.

 

[KJung]

Another reason I don't like 410's. My cab fits through doors easily, as long as it's upright.

Now THAT cab (the Genz Neo 212 with the speakers stacked on top of one another) should be easier to get through doors (by 'easier', I mean wheeling it through frontways versus sideways like a 410), since the width is actually quite thin. THAT makes sense to me, and I can totally see that... since the width is similar to the DEPTH of most 410's, which is how MOST people take a 410 through the door.

Of course, those back wheels and handle placement on that cab would drive me nuts (since I'm a one trip guy who puts stand and head on top of a cab and just wheel it in), but it's a nice width/height/depth mix for both schlepping and stage monitoring IMO.

Again, as long as you just turn ANY 410 sideways prior to going through a door, it should be a zero issue for MOST of us!

 

[Eublet]

I'm just looking for reasons to jab at you 410 guys, just for a bit of sport. Nothing ill-will here.

I never had issues with my previous large cabinets either as far as knuckles are concerened. Just turn it sideways like you say, but sometimes that's not always convenient. I used my cart on the big 212xlt also, but it didn't ride as well turned sideways of course, so it often made trips more difficult when I had to stop, rearrange the load to get through a door, and then keep going. As for 410's, having to do all that for a cabinet when I'll only needed half or less of it's output capability just seemed silly to me, no offense to you guys. If I can get the same feel and response in a more portable cab, then to me it just makes total sense. The ul310 was close, but not quite. Unfortunately the ul212, and most other 212's, are still large cabinets. I just don't know of many other cabs out there that are 410-ish without actually being 410's, much less being light and portable.

I agree on the kickback wheels, depending on how you use them. If you want to use them for rig transport, they will not please you at all. But I hate casters, so the wheels are nice to me. I can make minor adjustments on stage with ease, and not have big, bulky casters to contend with. Different strokes.

 

[Papersen]

I`ll be getting an Epifani 410UL2 in the future and I know I`ll have to buy another car to transport it. Might not be a big deal for many people, but it won`t fit in the trunk of my actual car

 

[KJung]

I`ll be getting an Epifani 410UL2 in the future and I know I`ll have to buy another car to transport it. Might not be a big deal for many people, but it won`t fit in the trunk of my actual car

I guess my only comment would be that if you are planning on playing at the semi pro or pro level, it's probably a good idea to get a car that will not result in you having to compromise what gear you bring to the gig, or that won't be a royal pain when hauling rigs (like having to cram stuff in the back seat, etc., etc.). Of course, many only need a small cab, but if you are thinking you need a 410, then that's a different deal.

There are many small SUV's that are available new and used for about the same cost as a mid size/full size car that work wonderfully and that have 'blackout' windows that will keep your stuff safely out of site. The Honda CRV/Element, and the Toyota RAV 4 are great, and have very large cargo compartments, black out windows for security if you have to leave your cab in the car overnight, great gas mileage, and great reliability. With these or a similar vehicle, all you need to think about is what sounds good to you, and how much weight you want to deal with between the car and stage.

That being said, I've recently been stuck with a few full sized car rentals (Camry, Accord, Impala) and the 401UL fits in the back seat of all of these with no problem. Trunk.. no way!

 

[Eublet]

There are many small SUV's that are available new and used for about the same cost as a mid size/full size car that work wonderfully and that have 'blackout' windows that will keep your stuff safely out of site. The Honda CRV/Element, and the Toyota RAV 4 are great, and have very large cargo compartments, black out windows for security if you have to leave your cab in the car overnight, great gas mileage, and great reliability. With these or a similar vehicle, all you need to think about is what sounds good to you, and how much weight you want to deal with between the car and stage.

I'm almost ready to commit to a new vehicle. My Tahoe is killing me, but man do I have room to haul stuff!

 

[SMASH]

On the whole knuckle-banging thing, I think it's just a matter of any time you make a cab bigger, it's harder to get through doorways. Therefore, maybe as you're turning or repositioning or whatever, knuckles are at risk. It's a bigger or smaller problem for different people for whatever reason, but it makes perfect sense that logistics are worse with a bigger cab. That's just intuitive.

Yeah, and it's precisely when you're doing that contorting to fit through a doorway or into the back seat of a car (that's where I'm usually at knuckle & back risk, and where an extra inch or two makes the difference between the cab barely fitting or not fitting at all), maybe worrying about how much space you have to get through there or making contact with the doorway and then you slip a little, that your back will get zapped.

Kjung, good to see you still at it here man.

TomB, it was a pleasure meeting you out west. Wish we'd had time to gak some scotch, but that night went so fast. Per our discussion that evening, be sure to write when you finally do visit up here.