ESP MusicCord listening test Part 2!

[bal704]

The idea behind A/B'ing the clips on the ESP website as a control is similar to what I do in my Engineering job to validate my hardware and software designs. Throw it a known good or bad sample, something that should obviously trigger a response, and see if it does.

We all agree the ESP sound clips sound different. Why they sound different is irrelevant. ESP claims the ONLY difference is their power cord. The ONLY difference. If we could put up a sample A and sample B, recorded directly from their website, and take a poll, that would give us an idea of what our other poll results should be. We've already agreed watching the video makes us think there's a difference, but what if we didn't have the visual cues and endorsers telling us there's a difference? Could we pick it out then?

For example, if 90% of the respondents correctly pick the ESP cord using the kind of A/B test we've been doing, then we can assume this polling method really works to discern differences in sound. On the other hand, if the poll is split 50/50 maybe this kind of poll isn't as valid as we think it is.

Just some thoughts....

 

[bongomania]

Ah OK, so the purpose in that case is to test the test itself, not to test the subject of the test?

 

[bal704]

Ah OK, so the purpose in that case is to test the test itself, not to test the subject of the test?

Yea.

 

[scotch]

The idea behind A/B'ing the clips on the ESP website as a control is similar to what I do in my Engineering job to validate my hardware and software designs. Throw it a known good or bad sample, something that should obviously trigger a response, and see if it does.

We all agree the ESP sound clips sound different. Why they sound different is irrelevant. ESP claims the ONLY difference is their power cord. The ONLY difference. If we could put up a sample A and sample B, recorded directly from their website, and take a poll, that would give us an idea of what our other poll results should be. We've already agreed watching the video makes us think there's a difference, but what if we didn't have the visual cues and endorsers telling us there's a difference? Could we pick it out then?

For example, if 90% of the respondents correctly pick the ESP cord using the kind of A/B test we've been doing, then we can assume this polling method really works to discern differences in sound. On the other hand, if the poll is split 50/50 maybe this kind of poll isn't as valid as we think it is.

Just some thoughts....

I see. That makes sense.


It would be great if Bowlus & Bass Gear Magazine did a big, comprehensive test of the ESP. (Of course, it's probably a huge waste of time & resources as nobody really wants to budge on either side of the debate...) You know, double blind testing involving both listening exercises as well as live playing exercises with a larger pool of bassists trying to identify the ESP cable.

IMO, Bass Gear Magazine has done a great job of taking objective measurements of cabinets, but still actually playing through them to give a balanced impression. If they don't already have a horse in the ESP race, it would be a cool thing for them to do.



In other news... I listened to the round 2 AIFF files again. I'm still hearing no appreciable difference.

 

[bongomania]

IMO that test would only be worth doing if a different test was proposed as more useful. So far the only "improvements" anyone has suggested for this test would be for each listener to be standing in the same room as a high-current amp (connected with the power cord) cranked up, and doing the same test dozens of times.

Not practical. Therefore no point in testing the test, unless you have another suggestion.

 

[fdeck]

Actually, a better test would be to keep the results secret until everybody has voted, to avoid "exit polling" bias.

Here's another idea for the test. Provide two identical data files... one is uploaded to your server with the computer plugged into the ESP cable, and the other is uploaded using a regular cable.

That way, the only possible difference is the cable, since the data bytes will be identical in both cases.

 

[bal704]

IMO that test would only be worth doing if a different test was proposed as more useful. So far the only "improvements" anyone has suggested for this test would be for each listener to be standing in the same room as a high-current amp (connected with the power cord) cranked up, and doing the same test dozens of times.

Not practical. Therefore no point in testing the test, unless you have another suggestion.

That's my point. We keep talking about improvements, shorter samples, longer samples, probabilities, bias etc. ESP claims this cable makes such a huge difference that they have a video on their website to prove it. We suggest improvements because most people on here can't tell the difference between clips, so we think the methodology must be a factor.

Test the ESP clip with our current polling method. If most people can tell the difference, then we've already proven ESP's claims bogus. If we still can't tell the difference, then this type of test will probably never work, regardless of the tweaks we make.

 

[scotch]

That's my point. We keep talking about improvements, shorter samples, longer samples, probabilities, bias etc. ESP claims this cable makes such a huge difference that they have a video on their website to prove it. We suggest improvements because most people on here can't tell the difference between clips, so we think the methodology must be a factor.

Test the ESP clip with our current polling method. If most people can tell the difference, then we've already proven ESP's claims bogus. If we still can't tell the difference, then this type of test will probably never work, regardless of the tweaks we make.

So, you want to test the efficacy of a poll in itself, then only use such a method if you see the desired result? That's a LOT of hoops to jump through just to ask if people hear a difference between a few clips, isn't it? After all, this is a discussion forum, not really a scientific journal.

If a majority of TB'ers are able to correctly identify which clip matches the control clip, that is interesting and informative data, no? Not end-all be-all testing, but still worthwhile.

 

[bongomania]

I always seem to have trouble extracting audio files from video. If somebody here could do the highest-possible-resolution extraction of audio from the ESP site's clips, and email them to me, I will put up an auxiliary poll testing them.

 

[bal704]

So, you want to test the efficacy of a poll in itself, then only use such a method if you see the desired result? That's a LOT of hoops to jump through just to ask if people hear a difference between a few clips, isn't it? After all, this is a discussion forum, not really a scientific journal.

If a majority of TB'ers are able to correctly identify which clip matches the control clip, that is interesting and informative data, no? Not end-all be-all testing, but still worthwhile.

Yeah, sorry to derail the thread. I guess the nutshell version of where I was going was this: If we can't tell the difference between 2 known obviously different clips, then all of this testing is pointless. If we can, then we've already got the final answer on the ESP cable.

Sorry about the derail. Carry on!

 

[Buster Brown]

IF at all there is an audible difference, it's totally wasted on me.

I'm with JimmyM, I'll spend my 150 bucks on something which will give some real world benefit.

Unfortunately, it won't be enough by far to get something to make 25 year old girls to find me cute

Brother, ain't that the truth!!

 

[scotch]

Yeah, sorry to derail the thread. I guess the nutshell version of where I was going was this: If we can't tell the difference between 2 known obviously different clips, then all of this testing is pointless. If we can, then we've already got the final answer on the ESP cable.

Sorry about the derail. Carry on!

It's cool, no derail!

Question, though: if we do as you suggest (at least what I think you're suggesting) and listen to the before/after Micheal Rhodes clips from the website, and hear a difference, how does that result in a "final answer"? I think JimmyM made a good, clear point about the playing be obviously different between the two passages. I think I'm missing a piece of the logic puzzle, here!

 

[Jim Nazium]

I have to disagree with bal704's suggested methodology. The clips on the ESP web site (as I understand from reading these threads) feature someone playing differently, so they don't isolate the effect of the cable. Bongo used the same recording, changing only the cable.

Further, I don't think anyone disputes that at least some people under some conditions cannot hear a difference. For example, I don't think anyone disagrees that someone with no experience in critical listening, who isn't really a music fan, won't be able to hear a difference at a live concert with a full band. The question we are trying to answer is, are the expert listeners who claim to hear a difference actually hearing something, or just imagining that they do? Bongo's test is correctly designed to address that question.

The critical test is, of the people who claim to hear a difference, how many get it right.

 

[bal704]

ESP claims the differences attributable to the cable (and only the cable) are huge and easily discernible. That's why they charge $150 for it. They have a video to 'prove' it.

The reason I say it's the final answer is because this forum is made up of people who listen to and play bass, listening with headphones in very controlled environments. The 'experts' this product is aimed at in other words. If we listen to the ESP clip, and CAN tell the difference, then obviously this methodolgy is accurate, we're just not hearing the difference they claim we should.

 

[scotch]

ESP claims the differences attributable to the cable (and only the cable) are huge and easily discernible. That's why they charge $150 for it. They have a video to 'prove' it.

The reason I say it's the final answer is because this forum is made up of people who listen to and play bass, listening with headphones in very controlled environments. The 'experts' this product is aimed at in other words. If we listen to the ESP clip, and CAN tell the difference, then obviously this methodolgy is accurate, we're just not hearing the difference they claim we should.

I understand now. I'm not sure its a necessary step, but I see your angle of 'validating' Bongo's methodology in this manner.

I doubt well ever see ESP chime in (seems they've had opportunity and invitation in previous threads), the most avid supporters of the cord seem unwilling to participate in this testing and there have already been 'high powered rig' and similar convolutions used as a foil. I doubt we'll ever put together enough data, scenarios, science or even sounds to dissuade most adherents. Just as there aren't enough testimonials, anecdotes or perfectly respectable endorsers to persuade me.

In the meantime, has anyone been hearing differences in the clips?

 

[Feral Feline]

Bongomania-meister, Please put the link to round 1 in the OP.

Thanks,
FF

 

[anonymous1015111]

so....what were the actual, clips/chords?
-P

 

[JimmyM]

If a majority of TB'ers are able to correctly identify which clip matches the control clip, that is interesting and informative data, no? Not end-all be-all testing, but still worthwhile.

Like it'll happen...so far, "I can't tell a difference" leads the pack by a ridiculous amount.

Seriously, how much more testing needs to be done here? If the difference is that pronounced that you can hear it in a Youtube vid that ESP produced, then we should be hearing it here. Obviously, when you look at it statistically, nobody is hearing it. I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt, or hearing about "you have to hear it under different conditions" or any of that malarkey. Every effort was made to be fair to ESP in any of these tests, and ESP claims it's instantly noticeable even with average gear recorded into a lo-res video further compressed by Youtube. Why anyone's defending it to even the slightest degree is beyond my ability to comprehend, and those of you who know me know that I'm pretty fair and good about seeing both sides of the story.

In this case, there aren't two sides to the story...there is ESP's side and there is the truth. Sorry...I have tried to be nice and calm down with the browbeating, but I just can't. This product does not work as advertised. Period. And if this doesn't prove it to you, nothing will. So go forth and help someone who lied to get a lot of your money get rich if you must. Personally, I think you should send your $150 to me, and I'll put a blessing on your gear that'll work just as well as this cord does. Hell, just send me $50 and I'll do it!

 

[projectMalamute]

Like it'll happen...so far, "I can't tell a difference" leads the pack by a ridiculous amount.

Seriously, how much more testing needs to be done here? If the difference is that pronounced that you can hear it in a Youtube vid that ESP produced, then we should be hearing it here. Obviously, when you look at it statistically, nobody is hearing it. I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt, or hearing about "you have to hear it under different conditions" or any of that malarkey. Every effort was made to be fair to ESP in any of these tests, and ESP claims it's instantly noticeable even with average gear recorded into a lo-res video further compressed by Youtube. Why anyone's defending it to even the slightest degree is beyond my ability to comprehend, and those of you who know me know that I'm pretty fair and good about seeing both sides of the story.

In this case, there aren't two sides to the story...there is ESP's side and there is the truth. Sorry...I have tried to be nice and calm down with the browbeating, but I just can't. This product does not work as advertised. Period. And if this doesn't prove it to you, nothing will. So go forth and help someone who lied to get a lot your money get rich if you must.

 

[Buster Brown]

Like it'll happen...so far, "I can't tell a difference" leads the pack by a ridiculous amount.

Seriously, how much more testing needs to be done here? If the difference is that pronounced that you can hear it in a Youtube vid that ESP produced, then we should be hearing it here. Obviously, when you look at it statistically, nobody is hearing it. I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt, or hearing about "you have to hear it under different conditions" or any of that malarkey. Every effort was made to be fair to ESP in any of these tests, and ESP claims it's instantly noticeable even with average gear recorded into a lo-res video further compressed by Youtube. Why anyone's defending it to even the slightest degree is beyond my ability to comprehend, and those of you who know me know that I'm pretty fair and good about seeing both sides of the story.

In this case, there aren't two sides to the story...there is ESP's side and there is the truth. Sorry...I have tried to be nice and calm down with the browbeating, but I just can't. This product does not work as advertised. Period. And if this doesn't prove it to you, nothing will. So go forth and help someone who lied to get a lot of your money get rich if you must. Personally, I think you should send your $150 to me, and I'll put a blessing on your gear that'll work just as well as this cord does. Hell, just send me $50 and I'll do it!

...........Again, the voice of reason. Bravo!