ESP MusicCord listening test Part 2!

[scotch]

Like it'll happen...so far, "I can't tell a difference" leads the pack by a ridiculous amount.

Seriously, how much more testing needs to be done here? If the difference is that pronounced that you can hear it in a Youtube vid that ESP produced, then we should be hearing it here. Obviously, when you look at it statistically, nobody is hearing it. I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt, or hearing about "you have to hear it under different conditions" or any of that malarkey. Every effort was made to be fair to ESP in any of these tests, and ESP claims it's instantly noticeable even with average gear recorded into a lo-res video further compressed by Youtube. Why anyone's defending it to even the slightest degree is beyond my ability to comprehend, and those of you who know me know that I'm pretty fair and good about seeing both sides of the story.

In this case, there aren't two sides to the story...there is ESP's side and there is the truth. Sorry...I have tried to be nice and calm down with the browbeating, but I just can't. This product does not work as advertised. Period. And if this doesn't prove it to you, nothing will. So go forth and help someone who lied to get a lot of your money get rich if you must. Personally, I think you should send your $150 to me, and I'll put a blessing on your gear that'll work just as well as this cord does. Hell, just send me $50 and I'll do it!

Whoa! This isnt directed at me is it? I've been outspoken against the thing from the beginning!

 

[JimmyM]

Whoa! This isnt directed at me is it? I've been outspoken against the thing from the beginning!

Of course not! Just the first line.

Sorry...I was ranting at nobody in particular, and just happened to quote you for that one line, and didn't feel like burning two posts in a row. My post count is stupid already without doing that.

 

[lomo]

Thanks Jimmy. I have avoided posting in this thread thus far, but I had to say thanks to you for breathing sanity into it.

Like it'll happen...so far, "I can't tell a difference" leads the pack by a ridiculous amount.

Seriously, how much more testing needs to be done here? If the difference is that pronounced that you can hear it in a Youtube vid that ESP produced, then we should be hearing it here. Obviously, when you look at it statistically, nobody is hearing it. I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt, or hearing about "you have to hear it under different conditions" or any of that malarkey. Every effort was made to be fair to ESP in any of these tests, and ESP claims it's instantly noticeable even with average gear recorded into a lo-res video further compressed by Youtube. Why anyone's defending it to even the slightest degree is beyond my ability to comprehend, and those of you who know me know that I'm pretty fair and good about seeing both sides of the story.

In this case, there aren't two sides to the story...there is ESP's side and there is the truth. Sorry...I have tried to be nice and calm down with the browbeating, but I just can't. This product does not work as advertised. Period. And if this doesn't prove it to you, nothing will. So go forth and help someone who lied to get a lot of your money get rich if you must. Personally, I think you should send your $150 to me, and I'll put a blessing on your gear that'll work just as well as this cord does. Hell, just send me $50 and I'll do it!

 

[tombowlus]

I see. That makes sense.


It would be great if Bowlus & Bass Gear Magazine did a big, comprehensive test of the ESP. (Of course, it's probably a huge waste of time & resources as nobody really wants to budge on either side of the debate...) You know, double blind testing involving both listening exercises as well as live playing exercises with a larger pool of bassists trying to identify the ESP cable.

IMO, Bass Gear Magazine has done a great job of taking objective measurements of cabinets, but still actually playing through them to give a balanced impression. If they don't already have a horse in the ESP race, it would be a cool thing for them to do.



In other news... I listened to the round 2 AIFF files again. I'm still hearing no appreciable difference.

Actually, we have spent a lot of time designing a variety of tests for different cables. As you can tell, there is a lot that goes into setting up this kind of a test to be as representative as possible of how these products (cables, in this case) would perform in the real world. Our first cable test is going to involve instrument cables, and although it's still a couple of issues away, we've been working on the test parameters for quite some time. Appropriate source material is actually a good bit more challenging than you might think. Pre-recorded material does not present the same kind of signal/load/resistance/whatever as you get with a live performance from a bass. But if you have a human playing the instrument, then subtle variations in playing from test to test can throw things off, as well. We are working on a solution, and we are going to come at this from more than one angle. And of course, we are going to do some straight up measurements, like capacitance, inductance, resistance, signal loss, etc (at least for the instrument cables).

When this is all done, speaker cables will likely be the next subject, but we will probably take on power cables at some point. I will say that we are already working on an article (or perhaps a series of articles) on the benefits (or lack thereof) of different types of power conditioning.

 

[JimmyM]

Instrument cables I understand. They should be scrutinized like that. Speaker cables, not as much IMHO but OK. But power cords? I'd say they've been scrutinized enough and given way more credibility than should be allowed.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I listened to the AIFF-encoded clips as well as the FLAC files. I let my ears rest, I tried isolating the different sections, etc., and at the end of the day, I couldn't hear a significant difference. I'll concede that maybe my ears aren't the greatest (although my hearing tests come back pretty good), but I think that's missing the point.

You don't need golden ears to hear the difference between strings that are fresh, and strings that are dead. Or between DiMarzio's and Bartolini's. Or between an Ampeg PF500 and a G-K MB500. The differences are large enough that they dwarf subtle factors like testing methodology, "ear fatigue", and all the other stuff we've been talking about.

So there are better places to spend my hard-earned $150. Why would I buy a "golden ears" power cord when the differences are so slight that I can't even hear them, and buying those other things will make a difference so great that even my un-musical, fairly dis-interested wife can hear it?

 

[4StringTheorist]

Actually, we have spent a lot of time designing a variety of tests for different cables. ... Our first cable test is going to involve instrument cables, and although it's still a couple of issues away, we've been working on the test parameters for quite some time. .... When this is all done, speaker cables will likely be the next subject, but we will probably take on power cables at some point.

Instrument cables I understand. They should be scrutinized like that. Speaker cables, not as much IMHO but OK. But power cords? I'd say they've been scrutinized enough and given way more credibility than should be allowed.

I'm agreeing with Jimmy here, Tom.

Instrument cables carry signals at low enough voltages and amperages that cable properties like capacitance, resistance and inductance are non-trivial. i.e. your tone can be altered, though a lot more easily with a passive bass than an active one)

Speaker cables less-so, because your amperage (and to a lesser extent voltage) just went WAAAAY up.

By the time you're talking about the power cable, the amperages and voltages involved shove cable effects down into the 1 part per million or even billion range, PLUS the AC power gets sent through a rectifier in the amp and zeroed out to direct current anyway. Oh, and there's the fact that that other 1-200 miles of power cable between the generator station and your amp might not be primo-grade.

Your magazine testing an AC power cable for its effects on tone would be akin to testing a cube made of very rare, extinct lumber to see if it really does fall down instead of up. The science is that settled on this.

The only reason that a company can sell an AC power cable to musicians on the basis of it improving tone is because they can play with scientific-sounding justifications just beyond the public's ability to BS-detect and because human beings are subject to confirmation bias. It's that space between assertion, perception and reality that has always allowed snake-oil salesmen to make a living.

In closing:

1. review away about instrument cables because that can be interesting
2. be sure to do a single-blind or double-blind with your speaker cable reviews, because there may not be a difference to be heard
3. don't review AC line cables because it's just nakedly a scam. It'd be like a magazine testing if the latest primo bottled water still gets you wet if your date tosses it in your face..

 

[grendle]

I can get a lot more sound difference elsewhere. For 150$ LOL

 

[JimmyM]

I can get a lot more sound difference elsewhere. For 150$ LOL

I'm telling ya...hell, I can turn tone knobs for free!

 

[bongomania]

Tom, as you may know I've embarked on a pretty significant amount of expense and effort on testing instrument cables already--so I would be very sincerely interested in hearing about the test methodology you come up with. To be frank, I burned up two credit cards buying test equipment, high-end cables, and software, and the results so far only support the LRC filter effect that we all already knew about, so I've kind of hit a brick wall for now. Since you'll probably be able to invest in more and better test equipment, I look forward to seeing how far you go.

If you want a bunch of different 20' cables to test, I might know where you could get them.

 

[JimmyM]

Tom, as you may know I've embarked on a pretty significant amount of expense and effort on testing instrument cables already--so I would be very sincerely interested in hearing about the test methodology you come up with. To be frank, I burned up two credit cards buying test equipment, high-end cables, and software, and the results so far only support the LRC filter effect that we all already knew about, so I've kind of hit a brick wall for now. Since you'll probably be able to invest in more and better test equipment, I look forward to seeing how far you go.

If you want a bunch of different 20' cables to test, I might know where you could get them.

Are they broken in? Did you only use them in one direction only so the electrons always line up correctly? If not, Tom can't use them.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[scotch]

Actually, we have spent a lot of time designing a variety of tests for different cables. As you can tell, there is a lot that goes into setting up this kind of a test to be as representative as possible of how these products (cables, in this case) would perform in the real world. Our first cable test is going to involve instrument cables, and although it's still a couple of issues away, we've been working on the test parameters for quite some time. Appropriate source material is actually a good bit more challenging than you might think. Pre-recorded material does not present the same kind of signal/load/resistance/whatever as you get with a live performance from a bass. But if you have a human playing the instrument, then subtle variations in playing from test to test can throw things off, as well. We are working on a solution, and we are going to come at this from more than one angle. And of course, we are going to do some straight up measurements, like capacitance, inductance, resistance, signal loss, etc (at least for the instrument cables).

When this is all done, speaker cables will likely be the next subject, but we will probably take on power cables at some point. I will say that we are already working on an article (or perhaps a series of articles) on the benefits (or lack thereof) of different types of power conditioning.

Looking forward to it all!

And, as Bongo mentioned above, be sure to check out his instrument cable-test methodology involving variable impedance loading.

 

[c-ba55]

You need a robot bass player like the 'Iron Mike' they use to test golf equipment.

Actually, we have spent a lot of time designing a variety of tests for different cables. As you can tell, there is a lot that goes into setting up this kind of a test to be as representative as possible of how these products (cables, in this case) would perform in the real world. Our first cable test is going to involve instrument cables, and although it's still a couple of issues away, we've been working on the test parameters for quite some time. Appropriate source material is actually a good bit more challenging than you might think. Pre-recorded material does not present the same kind of signal/load/resistance/whatever as you get with a live performance from a bass. But if you have a human playing the instrument, then subtle variations in playing from test to test can throw things off, as well. We are working on a solution, and we are going to come at this from more than one angle. And of course, we are going to do some straight up measurements, like capacitance, inductance, resistance, signal loss, etc (at least for the instrument cables).

 

[bongomania]

 

[JimmyM]

How come robot makers always have to give them a face? What purpose does that serve?

 

[Derek Kiernan]

How come robot makers always have to give them a face? What purpose does that serve?

So we don't dehumanize them.

 

[flipper_gv]

A sounded a bit brighter.

Nothing worth of the price asked by ESP

and of course, I could be totally wrong.

 

[BassyBill]

I've been thinking about the comments on the validity of this test procedure. My first impression was that it was pretty much sound, given the constraints on the sampling of opinions of the TB membership. Getting large numbers of us into the same place listening to lots of different clips under carefully controlled conditions ain't going to happen. So I thought this could be very informative and I've read the thread with interest from a regular bassist's point of view as well as that of an amps forum mod.

Thinking on, though, I can see a serious issue with the test. Let's pretend, for the moment, that there are a large number of people who would love to "prove" that the ESP cable makes no difference at all, even if it does. Using this polling procedure, they could unfairly influence the poll outcome by voting "no difference", even if the difference was plain as day. I'm sure we can all figure out how that would go IF it was to happen.

Maybe the option "no difference" should be excluded and only two given - either A is different to the control, or B is. People who genuinely can't hear a difference would have to just refrain from voting (duh). But then again, with that arrangement, I guess if people really wanted to show there was no difference, then should a clear "leader" emerge in the poll, a group of them could tacitly collaborate by voting tactically to even things up. And I know no way of keeping voting secret until the poll closes here on TB - there may be some way of doing this elsewhere on the web? I dunno.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here and trying to anticipate objections from folks who might say "There really IS a difference, but your results unfairly masked it because xyz." For the record (again), my own view is similar to those who have already pointed out that our understanding of the physics of electricity is comprehensive enough for us to be confident that the cable cannot make a genuine difference.

Thanks to bongomania for taking the time and trouble to do this and my apologies if this post comes over as "poo pooing" the test. That's not my intention; I'm just pointing out that it's almost impossible to come up with a process that could not be argued with by someone sufficiently determined to find fault with it. But I'm still sure that the outcomes here will be of interest to many of us, myself included.

Oh, and fdeck - loved the comment about using the two different cables for uploading the clips.

 

[bal704]

I've been thinking about the comments on the validity of this test procedure. My first impression was that it was pretty much sound, given the constraints on the sampling of opinions of the TB membership. Getting large numbers of us into the same place listening to lots of different clips under carefully controlled conditions ain't going to happen. So I thought this could be very informative and I've read the thread with interest from a regular bassist's point of view as well as that of an amps forum mod.

Thinking on, though, I can see a serious issue with the test. Let's pretend, for the moment, that there are a large number of people who would love to "prove" that the ESP cable makes no difference at all, even if it does. Using this polling procedure, they could unfairly influence the poll outcome by voting "no difference", even if the difference was plain as day. I'm sure we can all figure out how that would go IF it was to happen.

Maybe the option "no difference" should be excluded and only two given - either A is different to the control, or B is. People who genuinely can't hear a difference would have to just refrain from voting (duh). But then again, with that arrangement, I guess if people really wanted to show there was no difference, then should a clear "leader" emerge in the poll, a group of them could tacitly collaborate by voting tactically to even things up. And I know no way of keeping voting secret until the poll closes here on TB - there may be some way of doing this elsewhere on the web? I dunno.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here and trying to anticipate objections from folks who might say "There really IS a difference, but your results unfairly masked it because xyz." For the record (again), my own view is similar to those who have already pointed out that our understanding of the physics of electricity is comprehensive enough for us to be confident that the cable cannot make a genuine difference.

Thanks to bongomania for taking the time and trouble to do this and my apologies if this post comes over as "poo pooing" the test. That's not my intention; I'm just pointing out that it's almost impossible to come up with a process that could not be argued with by someone sufficiently determined to find fault with it. But I'm still sure that the outcomes here will be of interest to many of us, myself included.

Oh, and fdeck - loved the comment about using the two different cables for uploading the clips.

You couldn't exclude no difference from the poll because it's a valid answer for this particular test. Plus, you'd never know how many people actually went to the trouble to listen and couldn't tell a difference. Again, an important number for this test.

 

[BassyBill]

You couldn't exclude no difference from the poll because it's a valid answer for this particular test. Plus, you'd never know how many people actually went to the trouble to listen and couldn't tell a difference. Again, an important number for this test.

I wouldn't disagree with that particularly. Like I said:

I'm just pointing out that it's almost impossible to come up with a process that could not be argued with by someone sufficiently determined to find fault with it.