ESP MusicCord listening test Part 2!

[bal704]

I know the holy grail in this deal is the 'double blind' test, but I don't know how you'd do it on an internet forum in a manner to satisfy everybody. IMO, the 2 tests done so far have been an unbiased way to get an opinion on these cables.

Great efforts by those involved, and great discussion.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I know the holy grail in this deal is the 'double blind' test, but I don't know how you'd do it on an internet forum in a manner to satisfy everybody.

'Double-blind' simply means that neither the tester not moderator knows which is which. That's a simple enough proposition. One person makes the samples, labels them 1,2,3, etc., and sends them to the moderator, who then randomly assigns A,B,C, etc. designations to the samples and posts the test. Only after the test is over does the moderator reveal to the original sampler which file is which, and only then can the sampler reveal the test results.

 

[BassyBill]

I know the holy grail in this deal is the 'double blind' test, but I don't know how you'd do it on an internet forum in a manner to satisfy everybody. IMO, the 2 tests done so far have been an unbiased way to get an opinion on these cables.

Great efforts by those involved, and great discussion.

Agreed. The more I think about this, the more I realise what a good business model some companies have in this area. If the cable makes a difference, it would be possible to design a test to prove that pretty conclusively (but I notice that the manufacturer has as yet chosen not to do this).

On the other hand, if the cable makes no difference whatsoever, it's almost impossible to ever prove that, no matter what test procedure in whatever circumstances we dream up.

 

[tombowlus]

Instrument cables I understand. They should be scrutinized like that. Speaker cables, not as much IMHO but OK. But power cords? I'd say they've been scrutinized enough and given way more credibility than should be allowed.

That's why we chose that particular order of progression. We may never get around to the power cord test (we have a lot of things planned), but it's still at least a back burner item. And remember, performing a test on a variety of power cords and finding no discernible difference may still be of some value.

 

[tombowlus]

In closing:

1. review away about instrument cables because that can be interesting
2. be sure to do a single-blind or double-blind with your speaker cable reviews, because there may not be a difference to be heard
3. don't review AC line cables because it's just nakedly a scam. It'd be like a magazine testing if the latest primo bottled water still gets you wet if your date tosses it in your face..

LOL! Duly noted, sir!

 

[tombowlus]

Tom, as you may know I've embarked on a pretty significant amount of expense and effort on testing instrument cables already--so I would be very sincerely interested in hearing about the test methodology you come up with. To be frank, I burned up two credit cards buying test equipment, high-end cables, and software, and the results so far only support the LRC filter effect that we all already knew about, so I've kind of hit a brick wall for now. Since you'll probably be able to invest in more and better test equipment, I look forward to seeing how far you go.

If you want a bunch of different 20' cables to test, I might know where you could get them.

Actually, I was not aware that you had done this. Can you PM me a link (if one exists) to where you talk about this endeavor?

Thanks, Tom.

 

[tombowlus]

You need a robot bass player like the 'Iron Mike' they use to test golf equipment.

Interesting that you would say that...

 

[aborgman]

I know the holy grail in this deal is the 'double blind' test, but I don't know how you'd do it on an internet forum in a manner to satisfy everybody.

PCABX or any other PC based blind testing program/plugin.

 

[JimmyM]

That's why we chose that particular order of progression. We may never get around to the power cord test (we have a lot of things planned), but it's still at least a back burner item. And remember, performing a test on a variety of power cords and finding no discernible difference may still be of some value.

Well it might help prevent someone else from getting ripped off so I'm with you on that.

 

[chadds]

I want to mention that people buy gum and cars because they think it will make them more popular. Those results are hard to quantify. Those people seem to attract people with similar beliefs.

I wish to repeat that hi-end audio folks think that some people hear a difference. The salesman in my sample believes that if you've already spent on everything else then go ahead. Several of my sample said there are actual items that an audiophile can buy that make unarguable sonic improvement.

 

[BassyBill]

PCABX or any other PC based blind testing program/plugin.

Like I said, that could possibly show there was a difference if one existed. But it couldn't really be used to show there's no difference (in a way that would convince somebody who really believes there is one).

 

[maevinj]

Well for what it's worth, I thought B sounded like the control. I thought A actually sounded better... I really hope A wasn't recorded with the ESP musicCord. I don't want to be one of those people....

 

[seamonkey]

Actually, I was not aware that you had done this. Can you PM me a link (if one exists) to where you talk about this endeavor?

Thanks, Tom.

Before you embark on testing audio cables take a look at
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Only people who play passive basses would even care about cables, even then a little pre-amp could counter act any cable differences.

I know it's about true bypass - but it is very related to cable behavior.

Balanced cables like for Microphones have been hundreds of meter long snakes with hardly any effect on the sound. Look inside a lot of mics and you'll find a little transformer. Not sure why little transformers and balanced cables never caught on for bass/guitar. Seems ridiculous to spend so much time on cables where just a little change could negate the whole cable problem.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Balanced cables like for Microphones have been hundreds of meter long snakes with hardly any effect on the sound. Look inside a lot of mics and you'll find a little transformer. Not sure why little transformers and balanced cables never caught on for bass/guitar. Seems ridiculous to spend so much time on cables where just a little change could negate the whole cable problem.

Balanced mics and mixing consoles pretty much came along at the same time, roughly 1970. Prior to that high-impedance unbalanced mics dominated the live sound scene, with balanced used mainly in studios. When the first real live sound mixing consoles for use with pro-power amps hit the market it was almost a clean slate situation, there was no concern about rendering the older unbalanced mics and powered mixers like the Shure Vocal Master obsolete, as that stuff was acknowledged as being junk anyway. But if Fender, for instance, had decided to switch to a balanced configuration in 1970 it would have rendered the previous 20 years of amps and instruments incompatible with the new stuff, so it never happened.

 

[chadds]

Balanced mics and mixing consoles pretty much came along at the same time, roughly 1970. Prior to that high-impedance unbalanced mics dominated the live sound scene, with balanced used mainly in studios. When the first real live sound mixing consoles for use with pro-power amps hit the market it was almost a clean slate situation, there was no concern about rendering the older unbalanced mics and powered mixers like the Shure Vocal Master obsolete, as that stuff was acknowledged as being junk anyway. But if Fender, for instance, had decided to switch to a balanced configuration in 1970 it would have rendered the previous 20 years of amps and instruments incompatible with the new stuff, so it never happened.

Great synopsis!
Since Talkbass may have become Arguebass someone who wasn't there is going to disagree with you.
So without further ado, "the Shure Vocal Master was the greatest PA of all time."
Add personal insult, "the vertical array should impress you of all people".

 

[JimmyM]

I personally think the Vocal Master, while not perfect, wasn't nearly as bad as some made it out to be. Sure, you couldn't pack a stadium with it or run loud bass drum and bass through it, but for vocals it was pretty sweet for its day.

 

[chadds]

I personally think the Vocal Master, while not perfect, wasn't nearly as bad as some made it out to be. Sure, you couldn't pack a stadium with it or run loud bass drum and bass through it, but for vocals it was pretty sweet for its day.

+1

 

[bongomania]

To be clear though, balancing cables addresses issues of noise and hum, but it does NOT address capacitive loading. If a mic-to-preamp connection has a poor impedance relationship, a balanced cable will not fix the tone loss associated with a long cable run.

Fortunately that situation doesn't come up much.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I personally think the Vocal Master, while not perfect, wasn't nearly as bad as some made it out to be. Sure, you couldn't pack a stadium with it or run loud bass drum and bass through it, but for vocals it was pretty sweet for its day.

It didn't seem that bad to me either, until I built a Dynaco power amp to drive monitors. The sound through it was so much better than that through the power amp of the Vocal Master that I ended up using the Dynaco to drive the mains and the internal amp to drive the monitors. I'd say the S/N ratio of the Dynaco was 20dB better than the Shure amp. As for the monitors, those were the original Vocal Master columns, which I chopped in half to give four monitor cabs. For mains I built Altec A7 clones.

 

[JimmyM]

It didn't seem that bad to me either, until I built a Dynaco power amp to drive monitors. The sound through it was so much better than that through the power amp of the Vocal Master that I ended up using the Dynaco to drive the mains and the internal amp to drive the monitors. I'd say the S/N ratio of the Dynaco was 20dB better than the Shure amp. As for the monitors, those were the original Vocal Master columns, which I chopped in half to give four monitor cabs. For mains I built Altec A7 clones.

I just used them to rehearse my band in the high school bandroom