ESP MusicCord listening test Part 2!

[WhoDidTheElf]

Connected my computer to my stereo system (ASUS Xonar Essence sound card) and well, I couldn't tell the difference. Ran it through my headphones, couldn't hear a difference.

Idk maybe it's more obvious in a live setting, but I couldn't hear a difference

 

[JimmyM]

Actually, I had the chance to meet Jauqo at NAMM in January and spend a few minutes talking with him. I always have a lot of respect for people that just come right out and say what they mean. He may rub some the wrong way on here, but he's really a pretty cool cat and a heck of a player.

Never met him but have talked to him on the phone a few times and I totally agree. I also think he does have better hearing for nuances than most of us. I just think the science on this stuff is very clear and not really up for debate.

On the last thread, there were quite a few players that said you really need to hear the cord through a high powered rig to fully appreciate what the cord does. I was only saying that I would be willing to put that to the test in an effort to explore all the possibilities.

That, to me, translates to, "You really have to assault your eardrums to appreciate this cord." I would think the opposite would be true, since all a high powered rig is going to do is make your ears fatigued.

Anyway, just listened thru AKG K141's...thought I heard differences for the better in B at first, then I switched back to A and heard the same differences I thought I heard in B. I'm voting whatever answer will get 25 year old girls to think I'm cute

 

[OldogNewTrick]

IF at all there is an audible difference, it's totally wasted on me.

I'm with JimmyM, I'll spend my 150 bucks on something which will give some real world benefit.

Unfortunately, it won't be enough by far to get something to make 25 year old girls to find me cute

 

[billfitzmaurice]

something to make 25 year old girls to find me cute

That would be spelled P-O-R-S-C-H-E.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

So how many possibilities are in play here? I make it 3:

1. Control and A sound the same, B sounds different
2. Control and B sound the same, A sounds different
3. Control, A, and B all sound the same

That about right? So, 33.3% chance of guessing correctly?

[EDIT: Edited because I skimmed the OP too quickly. The test as set up doesn't attempt to determine which cable is the ESP and which is the lamp cord, only to identify any difference(s) between the samples.]

I know this would complicate things, and bongomania has already put a fair amount of work into this, but it seems to me that for accuracy, you'd ideally want to have a number of these tests, with the same people guessing. Some of you guys here would have a clearer idea than I do about the number of tests you'd want to carry out to get near statistical significance.

If someone gives the right answer to a single test, or even 2 or 3, that could represent actual perception, or it could just represent lucky guessing. (Guessing right 3 times in a row isn't farfetched; I'm sure we've all had the experience of flipping a coin and getting heads or tails several times in a row.) The more tests *each person* undergoes under proper testing conditions, the less likely it is that any differences in the ratio of right answers to wrong ones are due to chance, and the more likely it is that a significant difference, if noted, represents a real phenomenon.

The same would be true for wrong answers. If somebody gets it wrong on a single test, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no perceptible difference and this difference couldn't be perceived on subsequent tests; it could also mean that the listener just missed that one.

That said, I dunno if anybody would want to do this 10, or 20, or 50 times....

 

[bal704]

The odds only matter if you have to guess the correct answer. Judging by the companies claims, and the coin they charge, the answer should be as obvious as nuts on a bird dog.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Judging by the companies claims, and the coin they charge, the answer should be as obvious as nuts on a bird dog.

Quite true, but even a much more modest difference, *if it could actually be confirmed rather than simply asserted*, would be meaningful.

 

[bal704]

Quite true, but even a much more modest difference, *if it could actually be confirmed rather than simply asserted*, would be meaningful.

The companies own website has a video where the differences aren't subtle. Even with all the compression that goes on with video/audio over the internet, and low volume in a studio room, the differences stand out in the company video.

If somebody recorded the audio from the ESP web video, and did an AB poll here on talkbass, would we 'reliably' be able to pick out the ESP cord?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The companies own website has a video where the differences aren't subtle. Even with all the compression that goes on with video/audio over the internet, and low volume in a studio room, the differences stand out in the company video.

If somebody recorded the audio from the ESP web video, and did an AB poll here on talkbass, would we 'reliably' be able to pick out the ESP cord?

Possibly. But JimmyM has already pointed out the problems with those clips (namely, inconsistent performances), so it wouldn't be an especially significant result IMO.

 

[scotch]

I just spent about 10-15 minutes listening hard to these 3 clips. I loaded the AIFF files into ProTools & then listened back through a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones (good, balanced tracking headphones- but only about $100 phones) and through a pair of Roland DS-50a monitors with a powered sub. I listened both to the full-length clips as well as on-the-fly soloing og the individual tracks, even looping short sections to "zero in" on spots.

I don't hear enough difference in terms of tone or frequency response (or any of the other factors that ESP claims their cable might improve) to be able to discern any appreciable difference between any of the 3 clips.

As to which sounds more like 'control', 'a' or 'b'? Honestly neither. If anything, I thought the 'control' clip might be infinitesimally louder than 'a' or 'b'. (Actually, it might have been that the 'control' clip was a tiny bit noisier, but again- nothing in any way significant! I'm probably imagining the difference.)


One things for sure, this is the most Jimmy's walking bass line has been scrutinized since high school jazz band rehearsal!

 

[staindbass]

finally, a powercord JUST for bassists, also available in flatwound for a smoother tone ! (kidding)

 

[scotch]

Possibly. But JimmyM has already pointed out the problems with those clips (namely, inconsistent performances), so it wouldn't be an especially significant result IMO.

My favorite part in those videos is how Eric (the guitarist) notices an increase in low end after switching to the ESP cord. Of course, he points this out as he switches from comping in the middle of the neck & then starts digging in to the first 4 frets of the low E and A strings! It does sound deeper!

 

[scotch]

finally, a powercord JUST for bassists, also available in flatwound for a smoother tone ! (kidding)

Yes!!!!!


Nicely played, sir.... nicely played!


Which gauge flatwound should I use for metal?

 

[bal704]

My point is the company claims there are significant differences. They even show videos to back that up. If we put up audio clips from the ESP website, most (if not all) could pick out the ESP cord. No guessing needed. No need to focus on individual notes to see which 'blooms' more in one clip than the other. Obvious, not modest, differences. That is the performance boost that ESP is selling.

Maybe the control experiment should be A/B'ing the clips from the ESP website. That would be the baseline from which to judge our other poll results. We all agree the differences are obvious, but could we pick out the ESP cord just by listening to 2 separate audio tracks?

 

[scotch]

My point is the company claims there are significant differences. They even show videos to back that up. If we put up audio clips from the ESP website, most (if not all) could pick out the ESP cord. No guessing needed. No need to focus on individual notes to see which 'blooms' more in one clip than the other. Obvious, not modest, differences. That is the performance boost that ESP is selling.

Maybe the control experiment should be A/B'ing the clips from the ESP website. That would be the baseline from which to judge our other poll results. We all agree the differences are obvious, but could we pick out the ESP cord just by listening to 2 separate audio tracks?

I'm confused. ? So, do you want a single clip from the ESP demo to be reamped as Bongo has done? The process & result would be exactly the same- just different bass players and bass lines.

 

[4StringTheorist]

I'll disqualify myself from the experiment, since I'd definitely fall prey to confirmation bias, given that I know this cord is pure B.S. snake oil.

How do I know? I trust the basic discoveries of electromagnetic theory that gave me this computer to type this post at TalkBass. Yes, if this cord actually worked, then most of our electric infrastructure of the past 100 years would be nonfunctional junk.

I went over the physics of this in a post demonstrating these cables as snake oil two years ago.

<pre-rebuttal-rebuttal> (Don't bother reading this if you don't want to see a pre-rant. )

The stock response of a true believer will be that theory is one thing, but real world experience is another, to which I reply that if you think that, then please stop using anything ever produced by an engineer because it may kill you! That's what those smart engineer folks do: craft useful things using both theoretical and practical knowledge. They didn't need to build a life-size replica of the Golden Gate Bridge and drive cars across it before building the real thing because we have rather a good handle on the basic laws of our universe. This cable is the same way... its principles of operation are understood.

If you Truly Believe that there was some magic mojo (major stuff, not minor differences of one part in billions) not captured by human understanding of electricity and magnetism that will make this cable turn your audio sweeter, you'd stop using every electrical device around you on the grounds that it may contain dangerous unknown magic mojo side-effects. I ask only that the true-believer be self-consistent. If the reply is that I'm being extreme and that the magic mojo only exists in these cables, then the true believer has simply agreed with me that these cables are snake-oil via another route.

</pre-rebuttal-rebuttal>

It'll be fun to see the results of this single-blind test.

 

[Sliderbass]

My point is the company claims there are significant differences. They even show videos to back that up. If we put up audio clips from the ESP website, most (if not all) could pick out the ESP cord. No guessing needed. No need to focus on individual notes to see which 'blooms' more in one clip than the other. Obvious, not modest, differences. That is the performance boost that ESP is selling.

Maybe the control experiment should be A/B'ing the clips from the ESP website. That would be the baseline from which to judge our other poll results. We all agree the differences are obvious, but could we pick out the ESP cord just by listening to 2 separate audio tracks?

Isn't it just a little bit possible that the vendor could have, for no other reason then to sell more cables, for them to "enhance" the recordings on their site in one way or the other?

Build your own A/C cables! Yours will be better than what's in the box, cut to the length YOU need and less than the cost of the ESP. With the money you saved, take your wife/girlfriend out to dinner to make up for all those gigs you're doing. That would be a much better investment!

 

[Faderoktopus]

I feel someone should point out that Jauqo has not participated in this thread, so those comments that are directed at him are not debating, just bad-mouthing. Let's keep it clean.

 

[bongomania]

Maybe the control experiment should be A/B'ing the clips from the ESP website. That would be the baseline from which to judge our other poll results. We all agree the differences are obvious, but could we pick out the ESP cord just by listening to 2 separate audio tracks?

Not a good test, because it has already been plausibly shown that the player digs in more during their ESP clip, and people will invariably hear that as a fuller and more dynamic sound.

 

[biobass]

I've been following these threads with interest. My day job is a research scientist, albeit in biochemistry molecular biology, so I'm pretty familiar with experimental set up. Kudos to Bongomania for the efforts!

I listened many times over, switching between all of the permutations of control, A & B as best I could; easiest done during the first few seconds of each, so mostly the lower register parts of the clips. At first, I thought B might have sounded a bit fuller and more present, but on repeated listening I really couldn't reliably distinguish any differences at all amongst the tracks. This was listening with Sony MDR-V6 headphones.

Cheers,
Dennis